No Name

[Extensa5420]

*REMOVED*

[maybesomethingdunno]

Personally, I think it's mainly a stereotype or motif. Slapstick is often funny, but it's somewhat cheap humor. Can't think of something witty or amusing? Just have someone get hurt. We do get pleasure from others' misfortune.

It is a good question why men are often getting kicked the groin, for example. Is it because men can supposedly endure more pain or are supposed to be the indestructible sex? Why not women? How often do you see a woman kicked in the groin or punched in the boobs as a form of humor? A "cat fight" between two women may be one thing because it is on "equal" ground. Non-human influence may be acceptable because, for example, a woman falling out of her own chair is more difficult to turn into a gender issue. But how large would the protest be if a woman was kicked in the groin (or hurt in any way) by a man? Unless, perhaps, it is done in a way such as Lifetime movie in which the man is a spouse-abusing villain or something. ;) But even then, a slap is usually as far as they go.

There was outcry over the milk ad campaign which showed disheveled men trying to reconcile with their wife/girlfriend in the midst of PMS with milk. The men were portrayed as being roughed up and in the metaphorical dog house because of what they did (or didn't do) which was supposedly blown out of proportion due to the women's moodiness (e.g. "I'm sorry I did what you said and not what you meant to say", "I'm sorry for not reading between the right lines", etc). From the articles I read, the outcry seemed to stem from the idea that it was impossible for men to be victimized by women's behavior, PMS is not to made light of, and so forth. To me, that seems a little sexist. Surely a man could be negatively affected by a woman's PMS. Is it not possible for both people in a relationship to be affected by the physical state of one of the members of that relationship? Personally, I haven't seen any outcry from commercials which depict men as slobs by nature who do not practice good hygiene or grooming. Why not? Surely not every man is like that.

Remember the movie "Daddy Day Camp"? The premise of the movie is that men know nothing about raising children yet decide to try to run a daycare because "how hard could it be?". Of course, disaster follows to form comedy at the men's expense. I suppose there is the element of the idea that the man spends his day at work while the woman is at home and thus is more knowledgeable about the housekeeping and child raising. So perhaps there is that gender role coming into play?

Every instance is different, so I don't want to make a blanket statement. But in some cases, yes. It seems to be something akin to reverse-discrimination, like hiring an unqualified black person over a much more qualified white person simply because the company needed more black people to appear like an equal-opportunity employer and didn't want to seem racist against black people. "We can't hurt women so let's beat up, demean, or emasculate men for a cheap laugh."

There are some books, films, and shows I've read/seen (willingly or not) where I had to wonder "Did someone who hates men write this?" because few, if any, male characters are presented in a positive manner and/or are mercilessly subject to pain and suffering at the hands of women...often for no good apparent reason other than that they are men. There was an underlining hatred or bitterness towards men that was difficult to deny.

[Robodl95]

At first I didn't find the kicked in the groin thing to be sexist at all but MSD does have a very valid point, I've never seen a women be hurt on TV for humor. I also have seen a lot of that "anti-male" stuff that MSD talked about. I can name a ton of commercials where the man is portrayed as stupid, a slob or sex crazed but not as many for women. I don't find it sexist (because that would imply that it's insulting and I don't see it that way) but it's not very favorable.

[wickedblue]

MSD: About the milk campaign, it was offensive not because men can't be affected by PMS but because it perpetuates the stereotype that women have no control over themselves during "that time of the month" which is horribly offensive and inaccurate.

About reverse-discrimination, there is no such thing. Discrimination is discrimination. And what you describe there is not discrimination. We live in this culture where white people, just by virtue of being born white, are granted unearned privileges and have more opportunities than their peers that were born anything other than white. Affirmative action, while not in itself a perfect system, is a system that was set up to try to balance things out a little bit. Requiring employers to hire a certain number of minorities is not discrimination against white people, it's holding employers responsible for making sure that they aren't hiring only white people.

You are right, though, about a lot of shit on TV being written by people who hate men. People think that because I call myself a feminist that I must love when the man is shown as an emotionally stunted brute but that's not at all true. The same patriarchy that treats women as second-class (and perpetuates the stereotype that we are unable to control our emotions) is the same patriarchy that perpetuates the stereotype that men aren't capable of raising children. It reinforces the gender roles that women are caregivers and men aren't capable of it which is horribly inaccurate and only hurts men, women and the children that they are raising.

The kicking men in the balls thing is just gross and violent. I've never understood why that's played for laughs but then it's not surprising when that same culture treats rape as a joke.

[Clashfan]

Most of this boils down to the old Three Stooges argument, basically the majority of women don't find the Three Stooges funny and the majority of men find them hysterical. Humor has got to be the most difficult thing to explain or understand. The minute you have to try to explain why something is funny it no longer is, it either makes you laugh or it doesn't.

As for discrimination well it more than likely is, I heard Chris Rock say in an interview that white adult males were the only remaining group of people you could say horrible things about and no one would blink an eye. He was talking about humor in the current "politically correct" environment. I think that's a fairly true statement now as to why, well that is a whole other discussion.

As for slapstick humor well someone has to be the butt of the joke, it's how it works. A banana peel lying in the middle of the room is in and of itself not funny, it only becomes funny when someone slips on it. Why we laugh at others misfortune or pain, which is slapstick humor at it's most fundamental level, is the big question. Are we laughing because we identify with them and feel their pain or are we laughing at them because somehow we think they deserve the pain? If we truly understood this we would understand the human race a great deal better than we do.

[missy harries]

It is a good question why men are often getting kicked the groin, for example. Is it because men can supposedly endure more pain or are supposed to be the indestructible sex? Why not women?

Because men have VERY sensative balls. Ever seen a man get even just flicked in the balls? That is the true definition of pain and while it still hurts a woman I doubt it hurts half as much and its the doubled over raction of a man that people find funny.

On to the topic though it does sound more like stereotyping than being sexist and while stereotyping is not good we do have them for a reason.

[wickedblue]

@wickedblue: It would be helpful, if you could pinpoint which culture you are referring to. Your profile says nothing about your origin. And, the example in my first post actually did happen on TV. I am from the United States, so that is an American TV commercial. :) I think it would be very helpful, if we could all be on the same page and know exactly which culture we are talking about. Are you we talking about American culture or Western culture in general?

I'm American, but racism and sexism is not exclusive to the United States, so I'm not sure I understand the relevancy.


Because men have VERY sensative balls. Ever seen a man get even just flicked in the balls? That is the true definition of pain and while it still hurts a woman I doubt it hurts half as much and its the doubled over raction of a man that people find funny.

On to the topic though it does sound more like stereotyping than being sexist and while stereotyping is not good we do have them for a reason.

We all know that men are very sensitive in the groin area, the question is, why is that considered funny? Why is it "funny" to inflict pain on another human being?
Sexism and stereotyping are not mutually exclusive concepts. And just what reason is that? Maybe you see something I do not, because the only thing I've ever seen stereotypes do is to put people into a box and erase their humanity. We need to be educating people and eradicating hurtful stereotypes, not defending them as "just the way it is".

[SimsLover50]

eh, humor is not pc. While I personally am bored by the 'befuddled man who is clueless about anything but his job' trope, its up there with the 'man can't cook' trope and other wacky gender tropes. This is a stereotype along with the 'fashionable gay man,' 'woman who can't make up her mind,' 'man refusing to ask for directions,' etc.

Some stereotypes do exist for a reason though. My father doesn't do the cooking (I'm sure he could if he tried) nor can he do anything around the house, my mom runs the household. Men of certain generation are like this. People apparently like and can relate to this trope, since in the simpsons, Homer is clueless and Marge is much more competant..

While a guy getting kicked in the balls isn't funny, neither is the pie in the face or the wedding cake in the face that many find laughable. People are weird at what they laugh at. I consider this our chimp reflex. That animal part of us that enjoys such things that is neither kind nor rational.

sexism towards women in commercials and films is kind of so ubiquitous you don't even notice. Women in commericals and films need to be beautiful and thin and young, with breast implants, and usually hair extensions wearing uncomfortable clothing and the same standard doesn't apply to men.

[missy harries]

We all know that men are very sensitive in the groin area, the question is, why is that considered funny? Why is it "funny" to inflict pain on another human being?
Sexism and stereotyping are not mutually exclusive concepts. And just what reason is that? Maybe you see something I do not, because the only thing I've ever seen stereotypes do is to put people into a box and erase their humanity. We need to be educating people and eradicating hurtful stereotypes, not defending them as "just the way it is".

Its the reaction to the pain that people find amusing...... I never said inflicting pain is funny but some people obviously do since people do it all the time just for fun.
Plus we really do have stereotyps for a reason. We as humans have always devided people into groups, always. When a certain 'group' displays comman characteristics and behaviours then the stereotype arises offten a characterture of that comman group of people.
I may not like it or agree with it but that is how it is and I do know better than to categorize. I was merely stating my first thought to the posts.

[wickedblue]

You say stereotypes exist for a reason and then give an example of how your father can't cook or manage household chores. For starters, just because you are personally familiar with a person within a group of people that actually emulate a certain stereotype, does not make that stereotype across-the-board-true. I know many men that are excellent cooks and do a fair amount of household chores and I also know women that can neither cook or clean.

Secondly, often because of these very rigid gender roles, men do not know the first thing about cooking or cleaning because they were never taught. This supports what I said earlier about these stereotypes only hurting us. When parents only teach their daughters how to manage the household, they are failing to teach their sons how to manage the household and reinforcing to their daughters that their role in life is to take care of the house.

And I expect more. I expect more of women, who are just as capable as men to contribute much more to society than to cook the food and wash the laundry and I expect much more of men who are perfectly capable of taking care of their home as women are.

Sexism hurts everybody.

[Elanorea]

The media in general is extremely sexist, so as a rule I'd say that if something seems sexist, it probably is. A lot of "humor" (put in quotes because it is rarely funny) in the media relies on trite stereotypes. Basically, society has gone from "what sexism? these gender roles are totally natural" to "sexism is wrong and we need to eradicate it" to "sexism is over so now it's totally OK to make sexist jokes". And yes, sexism is something that affects both men and women, albeit in different ways.

[SimsLover50]

"You say stereotypes exist for a reason and then give an example of how your father can't cook or manage household chores. For starters, just because you are personally familiar with a person within a group of people that actually emulate a certain stereotype, does not make that stereotype across-the-board-true."

:Shrug: didn't say it was. Nothing is ever 100% true. But that doesn't mean the stereotype isn't true and relateable for some. This is why it is a stereotype.

"Secondly, often because of these very rigid gender roles, men do not know the first thing about cooking or cleaning because they were never taught."

The never been taught is just an excuse.

I don't know about that either. My father knows how to clean, learned it in the army, and from mom and has been shown by others numerous times. It isn't really hard to learn to clean and pick up after yourself. The reason he doesn't clean or do it, is because he doesn't want to. He's lazy. In my opinion adults don't need to be 'taught' basic skills like how to put dishes in the dishwasher or how to clean the toilet. Those things can be easily researched by anyone with google and the least incentive. No one taught me how to do certain things... I learned on my own.

The problem is that some people just don't have the same interest in picking up after themeselves. Others want things clean and do the chores to see that it happens. Its really not a question of not knowing how or rigid gender roles. It really is sheer laziness or slobby behavior. I have a female sibling who is an immense slob. She was taught to be clean and neat, however, this is just her personality. She does a lot of housework, however, she messes up a lot and creates a lot of the housework. since she doesn't clean up after herself. She has been told and shown numerous times.

[wickedblue]

I didn't say it was a good reason to not contribute. You missed my point there entirely.

Maybe I didn't communicate it clearly so I will try again at the risk of becoming repetitive: Sexism hurts us all and I expect more.
Relying on stereotypes is lazy and insulting so even though that is "the way things are": I expect more.

ETA: If we all expected more, it'd be a much nicer world and TV/movies might actually be entertaining.

[missy harries]

I didn't say it was a good reason to not contribute. You missed my point there entirely.

Maybe I didn't communicate it clearly so I will try again at the risk of becoming repetitive: Sexism hurts us all and I expect more.
Relying on stereotypes is lazy and insulting so even though that is "the way things are": I expect more.

ETA: If we all expected more, it'd be a much nicer world and TV/movies might actually be entertaining.

Honey the people in this world are shallow and I'd like to expect more but honestly I expect less from the genral population and considering the media is the shallowest of all you will raley find anything worth while let alone something or someone that will try to instill something posive against the stereotype.
I know not all men are lazy twits who won't cook just like I know not all women stay at home in the kitchen and sexisem only hurts if you let it bother you, a lot of people couldn't care less......

[Robodl95]

Maybe I didn't communicate it clearly so I will try again at the risk of becoming repetitive: Sexism hurts us all and I expect more.
Relying on stereotypes is lazy and insulting so even though that is "the way things are": I expect more.
Stereotyping isn't sexism (or racism either). There are lots of non-stereotypical parts for both genders. If there was no stereotyping then the "strong, independent woman" would just become the new stereotype. Like it or not there are a lot of people that fit stereotypes perfectly.

[SimsLover50]

I didn't say it was a good reason to not contribute. You missed my point there entirely.

Maybe I didn't communicate it clearly so I will try again at the risk of becoming repetitive: Sexism hurts us all and I expect more.
Relying on stereotypes is lazy and insulting so even though that is "the way things are": I expect more.

ETA: If we all expected more, it'd be a much nicer world and TV/movies might actually be entertaining.

In general tropes change over time. Progress is slow, but they do change. An example of this, is we see an overall trend towards anti-heros which began after the vietnam war. We don't have quite so many squeaky clean leave it to beaver characters, because people like their heroes less wholesome.

Many writers like stereotypes and readers/viewers demand them or find them amusing so I'm not sure they are lazy or insulting per say or what the market demands. The 'bad boy' character for example is the number 1 romance novel hero stereotype out there. The fans would pitch a fit if this stereotype went away. Is it sexist? Probably. But tv execs and readers need to earn their bread too.

Eventually tropes change when society changes significantly enough to relate to it. But there will always be un-pc fantasies or humor people have or like which will also be represented in film and media and which will offend some.

[wickedblue]

Honey the people in this world are shallow and I'd like to expect more but honestly I expect less from the genral population and considering the media is the shallowest of all you will raley find anything worth while let alone something or someone that will try to instill something posive against the stereotype.
I know not all men are lazy twits who won't cook just like I know not all women stay at home in the kitchen and sexisem only hurts if you let it bother you, a lot of people couldn't care less......

Do not call me honey.

If you don't want to expect more, then so be it but don't mock or belittle those of us who do. I expect more of people, not because I'm a damn fool, but because I believe people are better than that.

These types of stereotypes hurt us. And I'm not saying that because I just let it bother me and you saying that is a silencing tactic and I've been around too long and heard it too often.

[missy harries]

Do not call me honey.

If you don't want to expect more, then so be it but don't mock or belittle those of us who do. I expect more of people, not because I'm a damn fool, but because I believe people are better than that.

These types of stereotypes hurt us. And I'm not saying that because I just let it bother me and you saying that is a silencing tactic and I've been around too long and heard it too often.

Sorry bout the honey it just slipped out and I'm not mocking you at all and I feel bad that you think I am. I know people can be better than that but I think after seeing all the crap and crap people in this world its given me a major pessimistic outlook. You see the potential in humanaty while I see the downfall in humanity and both are definitely there within humanity.
I don't think stereotypes can hurt at all unless you start to take it personally.
What is it about stereotyping you find so harmfull? Tell me and I will understand your meaning more. :p

[ElementMK]

Do not call me honey.

If you don't want to expect more, then so be it but don't mock or belittle those of us who do. I expect more of people, not because I'm a damn fool, but because I believe people are better than that.

These types of stereotypes hurt us. And I'm not saying that because I just let it bother me and you saying that is a silencing tactic and I've been around too long and heard it too often.Sugar, you can expect more out of TV all you want, but then you are a "damn fool". Stereotypes are only harmful if they're believed. And, crazy as this may sound, most of us stop believing in stereotypes once we're out of middle school. If someone still believes in stereotypes at this point, especially in light of opposing evidence, they're beyond the help of societal change. They've chosen to be ignorant, and nothing will fix that.

Should we have more complex characters in television? Sure, but that doesn't mean we should get rid of stereotypes. Stereotypes simplify characters, and simple characters are easier to understand and easier to put in comedic situations. We could have characters that reflect the personalities of people in real life, but that would be terrible comedy, because people in real life are often incredibly boring. They have a reason for their behaviors that make it hard to joke.

Even the cleverest shows on television, like Arrested Development, are rife with one-bit characters. Complexity and comedy can come together, but it is almost always better to keep them completely separate. For the lulz.

[maybesomethingdunno]

MSD: About the milk campaign, it was offensive not because men can't be affected by PMS but because it perpetuates the stereotype that women have no control over themselves during "that time of the month" which is horribly offensive and inaccurate.

About reverse-discrimination, there is no such thing. Discrimination is discrimination. And what you describe there is not discrimination. We live in this culture where white people, just by virtue of being born white, are granted unearned privileges and have more opportunities than their peers that were born anything other than white. Affirmative action, while not in itself a perfect system, is a system that was set up to try to balance things out a little bit. Requiring employers to hire a certain number of minorities is not discrimination against white people, it's holding employers responsible for making sure that they aren't hiring only white people.

You are right, though, about a lot of shit on TV being written by people who hate men. People think that because I call myself a feminist that I must love when the man is shown as an emotionally stunted brute but that's not at all true. The same patriarchy that treats women as second-class (and perpetuates the stereotype that we are unable to control our emotions) is the same patriarchy that perpetuates the stereotype that men aren't capable of raising children. It reinforces the gender roles that women are caregivers and men aren't capable of it which is horribly inaccurate and only hurts men, women and the children that they are raising.

The kicking men in the balls thing is just gross and violent. I've never understood why that's played for laughs but then it's not surprising when that same culture treats rape as a joke.
wickedblue, I see that my understanding of the scenario of the milk ad was incomplete. From what I saw (and remembered) of the actual milk ad, it was not apparent (at least to me) that women were portrayed as completely helpless to their PMS but that they were merely lashing out (whether intentionally or not) at the men in their lives. Even a person who is able to control their emotions and actions may not always be aware that they are hurting others, so the loss of control would not necessarily be a requirement or a fundamental component to the equation. The article I had read presented the outcry as being based upon an idea that men could not be victimized in such a way, which in itself would be an inaccurate concept. (Thus making it a situation of the pot calling the kettle black in the sense that an offensive generalization of one gender is being made in the outrage over another offensive generalization.)

If the article was wrong or misleading, then that just further proves that not all sources regarding the current news and topics are the same. I hate bad first-impressions as much as having a poor foundation for a particular point (which perhaps my point had since I did not have the full picture), but I feel better that I better understand the concern about the milk ad now. Thanks. :)

I agree that there is no such thing as "reverse-discrimination" in that it is still a form of discrimination, but I think it is still a concept even if poorly named. You will note that in the case of freezer burn, food is not actually turned to ashes while in the freezer. This is just the name used to describe the situation, even though the individual aspects of its name may not be entirely accurate. Another way of looking at it may be how there is technically no such thing as cold. You cannot add cold to something; you merely take away heat. Temperature is the speed of particle movement. Darkness is not really a thing, but the absence of light. Levels of cold and dark are actually levels of the lack of heat or illumination. I define "reverse-discrimination" as a type of discrimination which aims to ensure equality but actually acts like a recoil, adding too much favor to another side creating a bias. Like the matters of heat/cold or light/darkness, whether opportunities are given or taken away may depend upon the perspective (e.g. "adding cold" versus "taking away heat"). So it does and does not exist. I hope all of that makes sense.

Reverse-discrimination is probably better suited as its own thread. Overall, I think my point with mentioning "reverse-discrimination" was that, in some cases, the treatment of men seemed to be somewhat like that aforementioned recoil effect: "Women have had to endure enough suffering, so let's have the men suffer." An effort to achieve some sort of balance is actually taken to an unfair extreme. Whether that's entirely true or not can be debatable as it is certainly not true in every case. But if it is a flawed analogy, I'm sorry. I try my best to make connections with other concepts to better express what I mean, but I don't always choose the best approach. :)

[wickedblue]

missy harries:
I appreciate the apology. Noted and accepted.

I'm really not an optimistic person. I see this shit daily and I get angrier and angrier and sometimes I just feel like giving up completely. The only thing that keeps me going is that I want a better world for my daughters. I want a world for them where they don't have to put up with insulting stereotypes and rigid gender roles. My oldest is 13 and it seems every single day I have to undo the damage done by the outside world and I Am So Fucking Tired.

When I say that I expect more, it's because there's this little piece of me that still remembers when I was 10 years old, living with a racist asshole father and listening to MLK's "I Have A Dream" and those words etching themselves into my soul. I knew that no matter what I do in life, that I must always challenge myself to be better. It's not been easy, it's not been without stumbling blocks but I keep moving forward. I am not one to sit idly by and accept the status quo because the status quo is just not good enough.

Stereotypes are very harmful and it's a form of privilege to not understand how they are. When you read the news; the latest gay kid being bullied at school, the teenage girl that commits suicide after vicious rumors are spread, the black man who goes to prison despite very little evidence, the woman whose rape allegations are not taken seriously, etc., etc., etc., remember that shit does not happen in a void.

Element Leaf: If stereotypes stopped being believed after middle school, there would not be a problem.

And don't call me sugar.

[missy harries]

missy harries:
I appreciate the apology. Noted and accepted.

I'm really not an optimistic person. I see this shit daily and I get angrier and angrier and sometimes I just feel like giving up completely. The only thing that keeps me going is that I want a better world for my daughters. I want a world for them where they don't have to put up with insulting stereotypes and rigid gender roles. My oldest is 13 and it seems every single day I have to undo the damage done by the outside world and I Am So Fucking Tired.

When I say that I expect more, it's because there's this little piece of me that still remembers when I was 10 years old, living with a racist asshole father and listening to MLK's "I Have A Dream" and those words etching themselves into my soul. I knew that no matter what I do in life, that I must always challenge myself to be better. It's not been easy, it's not been without stumbling blocks but I keep moving forward. I am not one to sit idly by and accept the status quo because the status quo is just not good enough.

Stereotypes are very harmful and it's a form of privilege to not understand how they are. When you read the news; the latest gay kid being bullied at school, the teenage girl that commits suicide after vicious rumors are spread, the black man who goes to prison despite very little evidence, the woman whose rape allegations are not taken seriously, etc., etc., etc., remember that shit does not happen in a void.

Element Leaf: If stereotypes stopped being believed after middle school, there would not be a problem.

And don't call me sugar.

Ah now I see. I was talking about sterotypes and sexism on a personal level and as an indavidual adult, sterotyping and sexism doesn't bother me because I can see past it and I don't let it affect me but from your point with a 13 yr old child then it is understandably harmefull since at that age girls and boys are VERY impressionable, if they are exposed to sexism and stereotypes daily then THEY will think its ok and run the risk of falling into it themselves.
I think the best we can do as parents is to teach our children to understand it and try to instill a sense of worth within themselves and just hope that they can do better than we did.
That honestly didn't occur to me :p My boys are only tots so I didn't have to think about that yet!

[SimsLover50]

missy harries:
IStereotypes are very harmful and it's a form of privilege to not understand how they are. When you read the news; the latest gay kid being bullied at school, the teenage girl that commits suicide after vicious rumors are spread, the black man who goes to prison despite very little evidence, the woman whose rape allegations are not taken seriously, etc., etc., etc., remember that shit does not happen in a void.

Element Leaf: If stereotypes stopped being believed after middle school, there would not be a problem.

And don't call me sugar.


I don't agree. Not everyone who is unalarmed about stereotypes is priviliged in fact, some of those who like stereoyped characters are those amongst the group portrayed. And many of us with real world experience know- for example- that all Scots do not have red hair wear kilts, or carry bagpipes, yet- this is a cultural stereotype that is alive and kicking and recognizable. Is it harmful? I would like to see more variety in the portrayal of scots, but I'm not seeing it.

To some extent, stereotypes and tropes exist to spend less time introducing a character onto the scene. Everyone recognizes the tropes they can relate to them, and the story can proceed/advert can proceed. If there is time to delve beyond stereoype these basic characters are usually expanded and given more depth. As cultural values change-adverts will reflect this.

If parents are worried about the impact of stereotypes on their kids they should sitdown and have a chat with them. But by the time one is an adult or able to watch tv unsupervised they should realize that what they see on TV is not representative of reality and be able to discern make believe from fiction.

Part of what you seem to be debating seems to be more about racism, hate crime and bullying which doesn't seem the same as sexist adverts.

To be honest, adverts are less sexist than they used to be. Many were overtly racist featuring stereotyped black people (I cringe at one I saw where a special soap was drawn applied to a black child which would 'wash the black away') and housewives and all white men.