The "Ground Zero" Mosque

[pirate_wolf_12]

Being in Australia, I don't believe we've heard anything on the news about the mosque that is being built close to Ground Zero, the site of the Twin Towers, dubbed the "Ground Zero Mosque" (whether or not that title is fair or biased is your opinion, I'm just using it as that's what it's commonly known as). Note that the mosque - which is also going to serve as a community centre and awareness/tolerance raising museum - isn't being built on the site of the twin towers, but 600 feet away for those still using the imperial system, 183 meters for us metrically inclined or 2 football fields for those who measure in the football field scale.

Now, I can't really form an opinion as the most I've heard about this is on IMDb's Politics board, which has the extremes of both wings. Basically, offensive stereotypes. So, what are your thoughts on the mosque? Too close to home? A good awareness raising campaign? A naive idea that will go horribly wrong?

[Rectos Dominos]

That's a hard pill to swallow it would violate the first amendment by forbidding one being built and its not illegal since it is still considered private property. Since it is 2 blocks and not next door to Ground Zero if it were it would be different but I do believe that there is some overreaction to it.

Waiting for right-nut jobs to yell "told ya Obama is a Muslim". :rolleyes:

[Nouk]

How about the other construction work that's being stalled indefinately by endless beurocracy? Like that church that's been trying to rebuild it's building for years after what happened..?
It's not just the fact that it's (partly???)Islamic that is irking people, (is it even a mosque?) it's the unequal treatment in favor of the construction of that building. And the 'islamic trophee' thing is hyped beyond belief.

I think that the biggest scandal is that the people who responded to 9/11 first to help out other at the expense of their own health will not get help from the state, and I think the outrage for this muslim faith centre or whatever it is, is partly designed to distract from this.

I still wouldn't agree to building that thing if it bruises so many hearts, such a large percentage of the Americans are against it, but I suspect part of that feeling is being influenced by the media.

[Nekowolf]

The state? Shit, the whole damn Republican Party. They freaking voted against a bill to give additional help and benefit to the responders of 9/11. But I digress.

I already brought it up in my topic, but to put it in short: if you can have a church, a synagogue, or a temple, then they can have a mosque.

[fragglerocks]

Waiting for right-nut jobs to yell "told ya Obama is a Muslim". :rolleyes:

I had considered this as well. I am sure that Obama put a lot of thought into his response on this. But I don't see that he would have any other choice but the stance he has taken on it. As President, it would be ludicrous for him not to uphold their religious freedoms.

And really, the thing that really pisses me off about all of this? The big fuss everyone is making is just letting the real terrorists know that we still fear them. They are probably sitting back and laughing about the whole thing. That is, if they managed to make it to higher ground. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/15/pakistan-floods-ban-ki-moon_n_682649.html)

[HarlequinnRomance]

When I was told this,I got a bit different information.The person told me it was being built on ground zero,and not 600 feet away from it. Regardless, people can't legally do anything about it. Religious freedom is part of the constitution so the president just can't say "No,your people caused 9/11." He has to go with it,no matter his opinion. I personally think a LOT of people in the city will be angry and the mosque will most likely have vandalism or even burnt down. It won't surprise me if it happens.

[Amtram]

Opposing the mosque would be akin to opposing new churches because of Christian militias, or the Westboro Baptist Church. Or no more Synagogues in NJ because of the criminal activity in the Jewish community of Lakewood. Or not allowing bars or liquor stores in towns where drunk driving accidents have taken place.

Personally, I'd like to see no more new religious institutions being built unless they're subject to taxation, but that's just me. My take is that if you're going to be intolerant of one religion because some of its members are horrible people, then you're going to have to apply that across the board to all religions.

Religious institutions build close to populations of their adherents. People often move to an area to be close to their favorite religious institution. It's not a slap in the face, it's a response to a local demand.

[kennyinbmore]

This is an issue that's way down on my totem pole of life concerns. FYI for those who don't know, there's an existing mosque just 4 blocks from that site. I'm not sure why the extra 2 blocks closer for the new mosque matters

[cappyboy]

You know, here's the thing that confuses me about this story. Forget all the stuff about religious freedom and private property and all that contentious political stuff stuff for a minute. There's a lot of good meat there and they are valid discussion points. But I've been trying to look at this pragmatically and I don't get it. This issue doesn't get started if the mosuqe builders don't start it by choosing the site they did. But why choose this particular site? Of all the empty places in the city, why THAT site? Especially if as Brother Kenny noted there's already one just four blocks away. It seems that area has a mosque to serve the local Muslims already.

They have to know there's going to be an extreme PR problem and that the place is going to have a huge bullseye plastered on it because of that. I would think they'd want it somewhere else to minimize non-Muslim attention. As I understand it, the cleric who'd be in charge is supposed to be quite moderate in his faith. I can't imagine he wants to be painted with a broad brush and lumped in with the extremists by the underinformed as has been happening. If I were part of the likely congregation at this mosque, I'd be opposed to it based on the incindiary symbolism of the location and the potential danger to people like me. You can talk about the cans and shoulds of this. There's a lot to discuss there. i doubt I'll be joining much of that. I'm blocked at the stage of "HUH?! WHY?!!"

[Nekowolf]

Okay firstly, I heard it's a mosque, and I heard it's a community center. I dunno which it is anymore. But as for that site, well... Why? Maybe it was the cheapest property to suit their needs. That could be a possibility. Maybe other viable property for what they wanted it for wasn't as good as a choice.

As for the second part, well... they could have underestimated the backlash. Or maybe they knew what would happen, but felt the greater good outweighed that backlash. For all we know, maybe they hope to try to differentiate themselves from those extremists.

But, I'm sort of opposite of you. If I was being painted in a way that I felt was wrong and discriminatory, I wouldn't want to hide somewhere and ignore it, I'd want to be out in the front, fight back against it. The Muslims of this place, for all we know, could feel same. Or maybe it's more like... "You know what? Freaking screw it. We don't care anymore; if you want to compare us with the terrorists, that is your own damn problem. We are not like them." So it could just be out of frustration from public opinion. Who knows.

[kennyinbmore]

It's a community center that includes a Mosque

[Nekowolf]

Thank you.

[Lavaster]

They have no right to be building a mosque there, IMHO. It's a symbol of strong disrespect if they do, and it's like saying, "We hate you Americans, we don't care if you died here, we wanna spread our religion anyway!" Total disrespect, right? So if they want to build a mosque, build it elsewhere! I'm sure majority of the country can agree with me.

[Nekowolf]

...no. Just no. Total disrespect? Maybe if they actually are anti-American. But unless you personally know them, the only only conclusion would be to paint all of Islam as anti-American. But to do that, it'd just be god damn prejudice. And spread their religion? How do you even know that is their intention? Just because it's a mosque/community center?

I used to take piano lessons in the basement of a church; does that mean I was secretly being indoctrinated into Christianity? Just building a mosque for its practitioners is suddenly "spreading their religion"? It's a mosque, not cancer.

And "the majority of Americans" sometimes want things that are ridiculous. The majority of Americans wanted Prohibition. The Supreme Court said banning interracial marriage is unconstitutional, the majority of America was for banning interracial marriage!

That's the great thing about rights in the US. You're rights are not under the dictation of the majority. They're under the dictation of the Constitution. So even an unpopular minority still gets all the same rights as everyone else, or at least should.

[Purity4]

It's really quite discouraging there are so many self-righteous, racist, prejudiced, self-serving bigots in this world.

[ElPresidente]

Waiting for right-nut jobs to yell "told ya Obama is a Muslim". :rolleyes:

I'd read Obama as Osama and was close to posting - "Well he is." :P

FTR I'm not suggesting a correlation between Muslims and terrorists (hell, you can be a terrorist without a religious ideology).

[Rectos Dominos]

FTR I'm not suggesting a correlation between Muslims and terrorists (hell, you can be a terrorist without a religious ideology).
Finally someone who doesn't blame religion for everything.

Timothy McVeigh anyone. He was Catholic growing up but lost touch with it at adulthood but still believed in god. Nothing even implies that the Oklahoma City Bombings were done "in the name of god" it was more anti-government than anything. Until 9/11 this was the worst terrorist attack on US soil.

[Nekowolf]

Hey, I don't blame everything on religion either. -.-

@ElPresidente

*gasp!* You racist! So now all blacks are terrorists too? /jk jk

[Amtram]

There is also a mosque only two more blocks away that's been there for more than 40 years. It's quite possible that that community is expanding and needed space close by. Nobody's covered that on the news, and I haven't looked it up, but it seems like a likely possibility. Churches and synagogues frequently expand into locations nearby when adjoining properties aren't available.

[kennyinbmore]

Any American has a right to sell anything he wants to anyone he wants as long as he own the product. It's as American as apple pie. End of story case closed!!!!

[Nekowolf]

I should point out that is not -technically- true. But to argue on those points, would be to completely miss the point.

[fakepeeps7]

I guess there's only one Christian church in New York City. And one Jewish synagogue.

Right?

[crocobaura]

Being in Australia, I don't believe we've heard anything on the news about the mosque that is being built close to Ground Zero, the site of the Twin Towers, dubbed the "Ground Zero Mosque" (whether or not that title is fair or biased is your opinion, I'm just using it as that's what it's commonly known as). Note that the mosque - which is also going to serve as a community centre and awareness/tolerance raising museum - isn't being built on the site of the twin towers, but 600 feet away for those still using the imperial system, 183 meters for us metrically inclined or 2 football fields for those who measure in the football field scale.

Now, I can't really form an opinion as the most I've heard about this is on IMDb's Politics board, which has the extremes of both wings. Basically, offensive stereotypes. So, what are your thoughts on the mosque? Too close to home? A good awareness raising campaign? A naive idea that will go horribly wrong?

9/11 wasn't about muslims vs. christians, it just so happened that the US has shitty political relationships with the middle east that just so happens to be of muslim faith.

[Lemon&Lime]

This whole "problem" is a huge embarassment to the USA. It is showing that many Americans are not as tolerant as they say they are, and that USA is not the "land of the free" but the "land of the conformists, or else".

I've watched the news coverage of this, and I've seen placards saying things like "Islam builds mosques on the location of their victories!" and "Letting the TERRORISTS build this mosque insults the dead of 9/11". And who says the old stereotype of some Americans being intolerant and uneducated about other religions is true? This whole fiasco isn't exactly disproving that image.

[pirate_wolf_12]

9/11 wasn't about muslims vs. christians, it just so happened that the US has shitty political relationships with the middle east that just so happens to be of muslim faith.

I know that. And I had no intention of implying that in my original post. If I did, it was purely accidental.

[crocobaura]

I know that. And I had no intention of implying that in my original post. If I did, it was purely accidental.

It's not that you insinuated it, that's just the trend going on, especially in America. If you're from the middle east you must be a muslim, if you're a muslim you must be a terrorist. If they didn't put in the same basket Islam and terrorism this building wouldn't be an issue.

[Rectos Dominos]

I've watched the news coverage of this, and I've seen placards saying things like "Islam builds mosques on the location of their victories!" and "Letting the TERRORISTS build this mosque insults the dead of 9/11". And who says the old stereotype of some Americans being intolerant and uneducated about other religions is true? This whole fiasco isn't exactly disproving that image.
Was this on Fox News by any chance?

[Doc Doofus]

I think there's a solution that would satisfy everybody. Demolish all churches, synagogues, mosques, and temples to Diana, regardless of their religious affiliation within a mile's radius of "Ground Zero." Surely New York can muster enough bulldozers and wrecking ball crews to do the job. And just think, Christian nutjobs can cheer while they bulldoze the mosques, Muslim nutjobs can cheer while they bulldoze the churches. It's win-win for everybody! Everybody gets something they want, everybody gets to dance in the rubblel

You would think that the Christian-right would have enough sense to realize that the same precedent that can ban a mosque could also ban a church and that they are hurting themselves, but I guess you can't argue with morons when they get excited like this.

The guy on Rachel Maddow's show said today, this is 2010's equivalent to 2003's "Freedom Fries" controversy. A few years from now, people will look back and say, "What, were we on drugs?"

I find it hard not to hate and despise the people who know just how stupid this all is yet try to exploit it anyway. They're out there and they know exactly what they're doing.

[pirate_wolf_12]

It's not that you insinuated it, that's just the trend going on, especially in America. If you're from the middle east you must be a muslim, if you're a muslim you must be a terrorist. If they didn't put in the same basket Islam and terrorism this building wouldn't be an issue.

Oh, I see. My bad. :)

But I do agree with what you're staying. Stereotypes are unfortunately alive and going strong.

[Lemon&Lime]

I would like to make a suggestion to the Muslim community who live near Ground Zero. A campaign to demolish all local Churches and Christian centres near the site of the attack, because it is insulting to the Muslim men and women who also died in the 9/11 attack. Not just Christians perished.

Have none of these racist idiots campaigning against the Mosque realised that? And no, I'm not talking about those responsible for the attacks.

http://islam.about.com/blvictims.htm

[simneesee]

*Comes out of lurkdom*

Sigh...Most Americans really disappointed and embarrassed me with their attitude of intolerance and bigotry about this issue. What really irritates me is the response to President Obama's comments regarding the mosque. How can he, in good conscience, condemn another religion and intervene in their building of a religious center? Then, his complainers would say "Oh he's trying to mix state and government, and he's not a true American!" Like wtf? He just can't catch a break and can't please everybody.
America is known as the "land of the free." How can we say that, and then tell people, "Nope, you can't build your worship center here, because a few of your members turned out to be terrorists and killed thousands of people." No one dares to tell Christians, "Don't build your church here (even if there's already 10 churches in that particular area- my church is surrounded by at least 8 churches in as many blocks) because some of your believers did blankblank. I think the mosque should be built, and I don't think President Obama was wrong for saying his piece.

[Lemon&Lime]

Was this on Fox News by any chance?

No I'm British, it was on BBC News. :P

[Nekowolf]

@simneesee

Originally, he said they have every right to build it there. But he later backtracked a bit. What I'm irritated about is Harry Reid, the head of the House Majority saying it. While Obama at least said first they can build it there, Harry Reid didn't, he cave in and said that while they have the right to build it there, he would suggest somewhere else.

Though, I can't say I'm entirely surprised either. Seems like he's been caving in a bit of a lot recently.

[HystericalParoxysm]

I just do not understand at all why this is such a big deal. It makes me a little (more) embarassed to have to admit I'm an American.

Also, I found this, and found it interesting - the other "Hallowed Ground" in that area: http://daryllang.com/blog/4421

[simbalena]

I think your post raises a more pertinent question... what is a "health bar pizza"?

[fakepeeps7]

I think your post raises a more pertinent question... what is a "health bar pizza"?

Doesn't matter. It's kosher (i.e., decidedly NOT Muslim), so therefore allowed to be there.

(I have a feeling that sign means that they have a health bar and they serve pizza. Interesting juxtaposition...)

[paksetti]

I've never been to a strip club on hallowed ground before- groovy. Maybe I could get some sacred t-shirts and pick up some express barbecue- in memoriam, of course.

[Doc Doofus]

I have a new compromise suggestion. Let them ban mosques within a mile of Ground Zero. And we'll also ban gun stores within a mile radius of any unsolved gun murders. (And, really, how do we know that the killer wasn't an Islamic terrorist??) It would show sympathy for all the victims of gun violence by possible terrorists. The fact that it would also ban gun sales anywhere in the United States, including Death Valley, is, well, regrettable. Its seems like a fair trade. We'll trade you the first amendment for the second amendment.

[Mistermook]

We should ban white people from areas in the US where white people committed atrocities against the Native Americans.

If you're looking for me, I'll be on the boat back to Europe waiting for the rest of you.

[fragglerocks]

Jon Stewart had made a joke about banning Catholic churches from being built near playgrounds and schools. I mean, we heard in the news about those child raping priests. SURELY they must ALL be that way. :rolleyes:

[Mistermook]

Southerners and black people should both be banned from assembling in the American South. There's clearly too much ill will, historical violence, and bad blood down there.

I wonder how much money we could get if we sold Alabama to Korea? We'd have to discount Florida though since the oil spill, but I guess we could find some Russian billionaire willing to pony up the money for it. I don't know who would buy Mississippi and Arkansas though.

[Lemon&Lime]

Jon Stewart had made a joke about banning Catholic churches from being built near playgrounds and schools. I mean, we heard in the news about those child raping priests. SURELY they must ALL be that way. :rolleyes:

There's only one problem with that. 2% of all Catholic Priests worldwide have been accused of being a paedophile. Whereas, 100% of Muslims are terrorists. Therefore, it's more financially viable to knock down all the mosques, obviously. :rolleyes: *sarcasm*

[roobarb_price]

Huh? The 'Ground Zero Mosque'? Is this referring to the mosque that isn't at Ground Zero...and isn't a mosque?
Cordoba House, the proposed monstrosity, will include a swimming pool and a basketball court as well as a prayer room. Eeeevil!!!1ONE!!

[Lemon&Lime]

It is a mosque, AND a community centre. Research roobarb_price! Research! ;)

[SuicidiaParasidia]

...no. Just no. Total disrespect? Maybe if they actually are anti-American. But unless you personally know them, the only only conclusion would be to paint all of Islam as anti-American. But to do that, it'd just be god damn prejudice. And spread their religion? How do you even know that is their intention? Just because it's a mosque/community center?

ive seen door-to-door christian/catholic variants, but no door-to-door muslims.

officially, i say what the hell, let them have the mosque/center. its a building. symbolism is where you* see it; not necessarily intentional.

america is supposed to be a land of equality. and that includes equality ( or the illusion of ) between religions.

* general "you" sense

[Idil98]

first of all ým turkish and im muslim.Im 13 years old and i live in istanbul.istanbul is a muslim city but we are NOT terorists.Who said that muslims are %100 terorists is %100 wrong.We hate terorists.They kill our soldiers.Soldiers are 'Mehmetçik'and theyre part of US.Im not the only one hates themTÜRKiYE hates them.I dont know if other muslim countries our terorist ýdk.BUT STOP TALKING ABOUT THINGS YOU DONT KNOW!

By the way cristians believe in god muslims believe in god.WHats the BIG difference?

[Elyasis]

Last time I checked religious discrimination is a big no-no.

And if I hear "post 9/11" on more time... Well, you know.

Personally I think some sort of center should be built directly on "Ground Zero" for tolerance of all kinds. Focusing on promoting goodwill to your fellow man and such. Nothing too flashy though, or insincere. How gauche!

[efolger997]

One interesting point is that about half of the 9/11 victims' families don't want it to be there and the other half don't mind. If anyone should get a say in it they should, but they're just as divided as the rest of us. I think this points to the fact that a lot of it is just stereotyping. Religious extremism can exist in any religion and atheism as well, and terrorism isn't limited to Muslim extremists. I think ultimately we'll continue to be divided about the issue, the building will be built, and then as soon as it's not covered in the media people will forget about it.

[SimsLover50]

Organized religion doesn't thrill me. I think all churches should be taxed, and if they want to build a mosque there, they can. Do I like it? No. I don't care for islam realy, or many organized faiths based on revealed viewpoints of God.

It's ok, if people like these things, just not something that interests me.

[~Dee~]

I thought initially after the disaster it was decided to turn the area into a park? What happened to that, nobody can get offended then.
New York could do with some more greenery, plant some trees and lay a lawn and call it the memorial park.

If I were an American I would be against building anything there, it should be left as an open space.

[whiterider]

Well, that's part of why this is all so stupid, ~Dee~. The site they want to build on isn't Ground Zero - it's a random street about a mile away from Ground Zero. Hence HP's link above showing the various other establishments which are in about the same place, relative to the actual Ground Zero, as the proposed mosque... I hope it's no longer a proposal and is half-built, btw... including a strip club. The people who are getting their knickers in a twist over this are only doing so because they failed to make "They're building a mosque in FLORIDA... that's WAY too close to Ground Zero!!" stick.

[kattenijin]

I thought initially after the disaster it was decided to turn the area into a park? What happened to that, nobody can get offended then.
New York could do with some more greenery, plant some trees and lay a lawn and call it the memorial park.

If I were an American I would be against building anything there, it should be left as an open space.

The area of the footprints of the Twin Towers is being left as a park. It is the other buildings of the World Trade Center complex that are being re-built.

[theAman]

I'm fine with them building there but I'm not fine with Fox news making a huge deal out of it