Religious Fanaticism: Excuse or Cause?

[ElementMK]

Is religious fanaticism an excuse for people to practice violent, dangerous, or hateful behavior? Or is it the reason for these behaviors?

I tend to think it is the former. Religion is a tool, and like any tool, it can be used constructively or destructively. I think it is likely that sociopaths cling to religion because it's a fantastic excuse. Words in a holy book are easy to twist (or even adhere to directly). On the other hand, the kids of a fanatic may be influenced to believe their parent's teachings more than even the parent might.

I'll have more to say on this later, but I'll let you guys chime in first.

[Robodl95]

There are religious and non-religious people who do wonderful or horrible things. Some religious people do crazy things but there are just as many killings/rapes/thefts with no motive. I think that it's an excuse because most religious people don't do violent, dangerous or hateful things.

[SimsLover50]

I think it is both an excuse and a reason. If enough people believe (broad example), executing witches is ok because the holy text and the priest says so, then a lot of people simply will not question it that much. It could be perceived as an excuse, but to me, it is almost a cultural value. If religion is also part of the government it is also a reason. Theocracies seldom work out that well, especially for unbelievers.

Religion is a tool to control people. Usually to unite them, sometimes for a common societal goal. People are more malleable if they have something in common and common values and Religion does this well.. Fear and worries about damnation are powerful weapons and have controlled people for centuries.

Each religious fanatic is different. Some are ignorant, some brainwashed, and some go into it eyes wide opened. So it is impossible to analyze a group and give one single cause for the behavior.

I don't give religious denominations a pass though. I think quite a few control by fear, which is a tactic I despise.

Of course I believe religion can do good as well.

[Shoosh Malooka]

Is religious fanaticism an excuse for people to practice violent, dangerous, or hateful behavior?

I think that the opportunity to be an ass in safety is the reason to become religious. My pastor thumbs his nose at those who have trouble with belief. He takes every opportunity to give me the "you are stupid for not believing my proof" look. Okay, pastor Barry, maybe Adam and Eve WERE twenty feet tall. And he assumes a scornful tone at "these people [me] who treat the bible as an academic exercise" even moving his head aggressively as he pronounces "a-ca-DEM-ic." He claimed that he is an expert on evolution. His favorite challenge to it is "how come we don't have any new animals." Where did you get your degrees to become an expert? No answer. Tell me your opinion on nucular science again, pastor.

Edit:
I really have to include this. His favorite expression is that each and every person on their way to extermination will have some moments to realize how wrong they were. His exact words are "I like to imagine that you [generic] will reach into your pocket and see the ticket you had to heaven, and you when you cry out to God you will meet silence." In other words, God has his opportunity to give the f you.

[Elyasis]

No offence but your pastor sounds like an ass. Nor does he sound all that knowledgeable about theology for that matter. I think at any moment that you declare JC your saviour you are absolved of your sins and get to go to "heaven". Well, provided you don't murder anyone in the meantime.

[Note: Not my personal saviour!]

[crocobaura]

No offence but your pastor sounds like an ass. Nor does he sound all that knowledgeable about theology for that matter. I think at any moment that you declare JC your saviour you are absolved of your sins and get to go to "heaven". Well, provided you don't murder anyone in the meantime.

[Note: Not my personal saviour!]


Unless you're a catholic. Or you donate large amounts of money to your church. :heyhey:

[Mistermook]

Religion is part of the same spectrum of human behavior as friendships, organized sports, and politics. It's dangerous because it sets up loyalties than can be explored by the adept, opposing positions of "us versus them," and establishes Others. As long as people stay rational in those sorts of relationships, everyone's fine. But the potential for poison is built into our social behaviors, deep inside our genetics and instincts. Its obviously not unique to religion, so you cannot declare that the behavior is the fault of religion alone, but denying or excusing religion from the same set of establishing socializations it shares qualities with isn't correct either.

The particularly antiscience bit sometimes going along with religion though? I think that's more or less dependent on the religion and they should be waved responsible as needed.

[SimsLover50]

I really have to include this. His favorite expression is that each and every person on their way to extermination will have some moments to realize how wrong they were. His exact words are "I like to imagine that you [generic] will reach into your pocket and see the ticket you had to heaven, and you when you cry out to God you will meet silence." In other words, God has his opportunity to give the f you.

I think people who take delight and enjoyment in the suffering of others are twisted, and certainly not doing their own religion any favors and are likely alienating the people they profess to want to help.

[kiwi_tea]

Sometimes a contributing factor. Sometimes watches from the sidelines and not to blame. Oft-times comorbid with other forms of crazy.

[BurgundyStars]

Finally, I would like to add that religion can actually be used for a good cause. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was very religious and advocated civil rights, because he thought that God was loving. As you can see, religion such as Christianity can be used for civil rights. Yep, the Christian God is loving and probably wants His children to be loving and tolerant.

That would be a nice example of religion being used for a 'good cause' except that very same religion was used to justify slavery, the notion of racial superiority, and colonialism. The Christian God certainly wasn't portrayed as a 'loving, tolerant' entity back then. But I have many problems with Christianity so I can't help but nitpick.

Anyway, religious fanaticism can certainly be used as both, though I mostly think it is utilized as an excuse for hateful behaviors and attitudes. I have no doubt that there are people who wholeheartedly believe their actions are justified because of their strong beliefs in whatever faith they practice. However, I personally see people hiding behind their religion to excuse themselves from taking true responsibility for behaviors they know are socially unacceptable. It's very easy to point to faith as the motivation behind one's negative actions rather than examine why one embraces such negativity to begin with.

[theneverendinglegacyofme]

I don't think there's any excuse for people to practice violent, dangerous, or hateful behavior. There's lots of people who think that religion makes you hateful and there's lots that say not having a religious denomination makes you hateful. Then there's others who don't believe either way or believe both have some effect. Fact is, people can hate and be violent for just about any reason.

But to keep with specifically religious: those that end up being fanatics tend to be more prone to more aggressive about their ideas, but not necessarily hateful and violent.

[bassoon_crazy]

I pretty strongly believe that deep down we have our own belief system. People channel their own beliefs through religion. Or moreover, they have their own innate beliefs, then see that their religion tells them they are right and those beliefs become even stronger.

You want evidence? Just look at the issue of Christians and homosexuality. So many Christians claim that they are against homosexuality because it's a religious belief. However, they don't pay attention to the verses that might tell them they can't do something that they like to do. The amount that it is brought up you'd honestly think that "Thou shall not be homosexual" is one of the Ten Commandments, but it's nowhere even close to that.

It all comes down to people already being against homosexuality, and then their religion conveniently saying that it's wrong and going "Yup, that's my religious belief!" Once you have everybody else (as well as yourself) convinced that it's a religious belief, people will come to have to respect it as such.

[5M0K3]

If violent/harmful acts were protected by the government, just because it's a religion, a lot of people would take advantage of that, at least the crazies would.

Maybe a homophobe wants to burn down a gay bar, he could do it, and simply say his religious morals tell him that they need to die.

[crocobaura]

If violent/harmful acts were protected by the government, just because it's a religion, a lot of people would take advantage of that, at least the crazies would.

Maybe a homophobe wants to burn down a gay bar, he could do it, and simply say his religious morals tell him that they need to die.


Violent and harmful acts do happen and are upheld by the law in certain islamic countries where women can be stoned to death on account of adultery or because they were raped. Not sure wether religious fanatics take advantage of that, but it certainly is a good excuse for the violence.

[opiumgirl]

I think the operative word here is fanaticism. Any fanatic, religious or otherwise do not play with full deck in my opinion.
That said, if you add religion to the mix, you get a very volatile situation because people are so emotionally invested in their beliefs.
I do think that it is a case of both excuse and cause, but I tend to lean more toward cause.
People will do horrible things if they think god is telling them to.

[SimsLover50]

Problem with Religious fanatics is that they aren't thinking. They 'believe' and that is enough.

You can't argue with someone's beliefs, because beliefs aren't always rational.

[PhenethyaSim]

I personally think using religion to justify cruel behavior is very wrong. I'm catholic and I see it all the time people act hateful in the name of god and it drives me nuts. To me you can't justify being racist or homophobic (or anything else) by saying its what god wants. FYI its not.

[kiwi_tea]

FYI its not.

If a god exists, how are we to know he's not a racist?

[opiumgirl]

If a god exists, how are we to know he's not a racist?

:rofl:
You are so right! God, if he/she/it exists is not something that can be pinned down by a set of characteristics.

This has always been my problem with religion in general because I always feel that if there is a GOD, the creator of the universe kind, to put a label on such an entity would be ludicrous.
To think that such an entity would be an interventionist god would be beyond belief.

To get back on topic: I think that people will tell themselves all sorts of nonsense to justify their actions. In my country funnily enough the excuse is always "satan made me do it!"
Which is just :faceslap:
I always want to ask those people: Do you realize satan is a christian myth? Are you a pseudo christian? What exactly are you except for f%cked up? Seriously?
Of course they are fanatics, which makes conversation impossible.

[katierose33]

If a god exists, how are we to know he's not a racist?

Well the most common version of God is a perfect being that created all. So using that same thought then God could not be a racist since he created all the races in theory of course.
Now as to those with extreme beliefs...no there is no excuse to harm others in the name of your god. If one was to believe in a perfect loving god then there should be no reason for extreme beliefs..because the god being worshiped is all loving then should not the one worshiping such a god also be all loving of others...I believe in God but I am in no way preachy. I have had enough preachy family members to last a lifetime. I was talking not long ago with my roommate and she made a good point...to her religion is like a child's blanket.....something to make us feel safe in troubled times. In my experience people that are overly religious can be far more judgmental and narrow minded(not all religious people of course)....This leads to hate and hate leads to fanaticism.

Oddly enough I was just going over some of these same thoughts in my philosophy class

[SimsLover50]

God is a reflection of his worshipers desires and prejudices. Think circumcision is awesome? God wants it! Think its wrong for kids to back talk their parents? God thinks so too! Don't like Pork? God hates pork. Don't like those other people over there who arent' your flavor of religion? God will smite them, Want 10 husbands? God says that's ok, it says so on page 9.

This is why it is so easy for fantatics to manipulate and use 'the word of god' and 'holy texts' to their advantage, people have been doing it for a millenia.

I've never seen a fanatic pull out something innocuous from the bible or <insert religious text> and crusade about it. It is usually something mean meant to hurt or push or bully. Fantatics never go nuts about: loving their neighbors. Its' only that god hates gays, lets go disrupt a military funeral or lets burn the witch, or stone this person because they committed sex out of <insert religion> wedlock.

My point is, to some, religion is power. The fanatic gets power to bully and push and frighten. And that is the way of the powerless fanatic throughout history.

I am reminded from a scene in one of the sword and sandal films... When the bad guy is justifying murder to Hera (?) and he says. "It was the will of the gods that I kill x and y."

Hera bluntly chides him and says "It wasn't the will of the gods, it is your will."

[katierose33]

\
I am reminded from a scene in one of the sword and sandal films... When the bad guy is justifying murder to Hera (?) and he says. "It was the will of the gods that I kill x and y."

Hera bluntly chides him and says "It wasn't the will of the gods, it is your will."

I love that...I have no clue what movie that is but I love that

[SimsLover50]

Yes. For the life of me I cannot recall the name of the film. It was always a good line, and I always remember it whenever says something is the will of god.

[Oaktree]

If violent/harmful acts were protected by the government, just because it's a religion, a lot of people would take advantage of that, at least the crazies would.

Technically, the government does protect violent/harmful acts - as long as its operatives are the only ones doing them. Governments take up a monopoly on violence. They allow themselves to use it to initiate wars and to keep people in line with police, but no one else is allowed to use it, even to protect themselves against government-initiated violence. And there are some violent people who take advantage of those positions. There is no dearth of police brutality and war crimes.

[PhenethyaSim]

I've never seen a fanatic pull out something innocuous from the bible or <insert religious text> and crusade about it. It is usually something mean meant to hurt or push or bully. Fantatics never go nuts about: loving their neighbors. Its' only that god hates gays, lets go disrupt a military funeral or lets burn the witch, or stone this person because they committed sex out of <insert religion> wedlock.


that has always bothered me Fanatics seem to forget the love thy neighbor actually most people seem to forget that which i find strange because that is what I live by and I think if more people interpreted religion this way things would be better.

[Lawli-Lawli]

Religious or non...I don't think that is a factor all though some do use it as a reason as to why the "smote evil".

I personally find religion to be something to ease your pain of not knowing what is to come of you once you die, not knowing what your purpose is, and/or something people use to control others. People always have to have an answer for everything.

[simonem]

I have one child with spina bifida, one with autism and I had cancer last year. Personally I find the idea of believing this has been done on purpose horrifying. I take great comfort in thinking it's all just random evolution.

[SuicidiaParasidia]

well, i wonder. would people who are "good" in their religion still be "good" without it? would people who are "bad" in their religion still be "bad"?

ultimately i think its pretty plain that the world is comprised of many people, but a few general (yet also specific) categories.
there are people who are unpleasant no matter what they believe in. if religion were not an option, they would find or contrive (actually, they already DO, thats why there always seems to be a widely-recognized ass in every group of people, anywhere) another route to vent their unpleasantness upon the world.
likewise i think for most people who have genuinely good intent, without religion, they would still find ways to encourage the company of like-minded people and aim to do more beneficial things for by default.
and for people who are just easily influenced, whatever catches their eye for the moment or whomever makes an effort to impress upon them will be what sustains them.

i think most of religions popularity comes from a desire to understand, but in a very backward way that requires the desire-r to toss common sense to the wind in order to achieve it.
we spend a large portion of our lives categorizing things.
objects are the simplest. animals are a bit more complex. but humans are downright scary, and if you really think about it, we can never fully know another human. we can only know what we are subjected to, how we perceive it, and what they choose to let us in on. life will beat us over the head with this observation repeatedly, but it doesnt change that its a scary idea, so we spend the majority of our lives trying to compartmentalize and come to know that which we cannot fully know: each other.
religion is one such tool we use to either tell ourselves that:
A) other people are really just like OURSELVES, deep down, and since we know ourselves fairly well, dealing with others shouldnt be so scary after all!
B) other people can be explained, no matter what. even if we dont agree with them, even if we hate them, we understand them and can gain a higher sense of importance from that.
C) for those who are not quite so introspective, we have the idea that its not scary because we dont NEED to know ourselves, someone else already knows us to the max! we can sit back and chill out because someone else understands, and we know they understand, even though we dont understand ourselves as well as not understanding anybody else.
D) its okay to deny everything now, because in the end all will be rewarded/smited. theres no need to do any heavy soul-searching or worry about whats going down right now, because sooner or later it will all end and it will all either be happy/fiery wrath.

so basically, it boils down to fear. fear of others, fear of self. fear of things that we currently cant begin to grasp. and that fear is understandable. natural, practically. but we cant go through life being terrified all the time, so we make up ways to deal with it, or repress it. cause or excuse, we use it to fit our own designs, whatever they may be. when we gain an understanding of labels and choose to adopt certain labels, we expect a certain degree of endorsement by others. it loops back to categorization.

[Mistermook]

On the other hand, I can see how religion, or politics, or money, or charisma, all give certain people gross advantages over the rest of us too. Or at least they're leveraged to the detriment of people who aren't falling in with the power structure of the month (or decade, or whatever.) Religious loners can be as nutty as they like. Nutty rich people? Don't bother me.

Mankind is scary when it travels in packs though. We're top end predators. Socialization has allowed us to do great things, but it's also the scariest aspect of ourselves. In the US we tend to glorify the individual, but the real threat (and savior) of society isn't the individual - it's the masses. However they mass? Not really relevant. You should be as frightened of a group of intent Pretty Princess Pony advocates as a Cult of Assassins. Turn either against you with the right buttons, give them power to exercise over others without checks and balances? They'll eventually both look alike, and neither will be cute and cuddly.

[PhenethyaSim]

On the other hand, I can see how religion, or politics, or money, or charisma, all give certain people gross advantages over the rest of us too. Or at least they're leveraged to the detriment of people who aren't falling in with the power structure of the month (or decade, or whatever.) Religious loners can be as nutty as they like. Nutty rich people? Don't bother me.


I really don't see religion as having an advantage like being in politics or being rich some of the most devout people are dirt poor and struggling to get by and religion is one of the biggest reasons to be treated badly by others IE. if you have beliefs different to the masses or just different to one person like a coworker or a boss its likely to effect you badly and just because you have the same beliefs doesn't mean you're treated better. Growing up I was catholic just like a large percent of the popular people in my school and it didn't do me any good they didn't treat me better than my equally unpopular atheist or other non-catholic peers in fact I was treated worse.

[Mistermook]

I really don't see religion as having an advantage like being in politics or being rich some of the most devout people are dirt poor and struggling to get by and religion is one of the biggest reasons to be treated badly by others IE. if you have beliefs different to the masses or just different to one person like a coworker or a boss its likely to effect you badly and just because you have the same beliefs doesn't mean you're treated better. Growing up I was catholic just like a large percent of the popular people in my school and it didn't do me any good they didn't treat me better than my equally unpopular atheist or other non-catholic peers in fact I was treated worse.
It's an affiliation. It's a sports team with specific political implications. When you're inside the organization it's being in, and when you're outside the organization it's a peer pressure (or otherwise) social device to leverage with your peers or against others. It's not a bad thing necessarily, anymore than the sports team fans, or political advocates grouping together. But it's not "not" a thing either. And when social groups in humans start becoming aggressive towards other social groups, it's... well it's one of the places wars come from at least. We're social animals, and whether we're feeling the security of the pack, trying to push others to accept the pack, or crushing other packs, it's a place that I think humans need to be very careful and aware of. Oppression is other people, even though safety and innovation and civilization and everything else is too.

Mostly I think social groups in general (religious or otherwise) are good until they start accumulating power or feeling weak. That's why I'm a fan of democracy and lots and lots of laws - that way, hopefully at least, no group ever gets overlooked or unprotected and no one ever lacks a voice to seek advocacy.

[malfunction]

Some of the most crucial footpads that mankind has stepped on to progress towards what we've become today exist because of religion.

Now, don't get me wrong, the religious groups I refer to attempted to and succeeded on some levels to almost eradicate my entire ancestry and heritage. But it was moments like that when these groups evolved into something more vile, that action is taken. Actions that lead to moments of glory, moments of despair, and beyond. Although my bloodline would stave me to death for saying this I do thank those certain religious groups who segregated, tortured, murdered and oppressed us - simply because without being pushed against a wall we never would have fought back.

The slavonic culture would not have thrived, or grew had not for taking action against groups and clans that tried to snuff us out. A common law that existed for nearly a thousand years (Veche) was born because of religious crusades and turmoil. In some hidden places in the far east of europe you can find peaceful people still abiding by Veche and they are some of the happiest human beings I've ever seen. Godless, fearless, powerless. Just like everyone else around them.

[Sk3llig]

I wholeheartedly believe religion is a tool. I do think religion was once something completely different. Like guidelines to being better for yourself and your fellow man. Though, most evidence points towards religion falling from it's former 'grace'. If you look back to most of large scale acts of violence in history, they were due to religion, a difference of religions, and the manipulation of it. The Crusades, The Salem Witch Trials, The Holocaust and 9/11 are more known examples. For centuries the emperor of China was chosen by a 'mandate from heaven'. The country tore itself apart over and over again, just to see who 'Heaven' would pick to be the next ruler. The idea that heaven was choosing their rulers might have and probably did alter China's future.

Manipulation of religion is still going on now. How often it is blindly followed like in the past, I cannot say(Obviously I can't stalk, hear about or see every religious situation in the world, or even in my country :P). Here is a modern day example that happened in October, 2011.

http://unicornbooty.com/blog/2011/10/07/tn-pastor-who-ordered-attack-on-gay-couple-arrested-for-stealing/

A man's own father ordered his congregation to attack his son for attempting to enter the church. After he was assaulted by four deacons of the church, two of them being his uncles, the police finally arrived on the scene. Even then the police did not allow to to press charges until the situation received media attention. Once the charges were finally pressed, the pastor remained free and unpunished. It wasn't until the pastor's wife turned the pastor in for theft that anything was done.

[opiumgirl]

We're social animals, and whether we're feeling the security of the pack, trying to push others to accept the pack, or crushing other packs, it's a place that I think humans need to be very careful and aware of. Oppression is other people, even though safety and innovation and civilization and everything else is too..

You have a very good point here and I think it applies even more to fanatics than generally religious people.
If you know your idea is a bit off, there is safety in numbers. You don't have to feel like a freak all by yourself because look! All these others agree with me! Here goes the next crusade or what-ever.

The moment the minority feels they have power over the majority or can impose their view on the majority we no longer have the benefits of safety and civilization.

Mostly I think social groups in general (religious or otherwise) are good until they start accumulating power or feeling weak. That's why I'm a fan of democracy and lots and lots of laws - that way, hopefully at least, no group ever gets overlooked or unprotected and no one ever lacks a voice to seek advocacy.

I would agree with you on this but unfortunately the rule of law in itself can also become a religion, with just as many crazy people saying that my crazy is my legal right.

Democracy was great in Ancient Greece, where they had a homogeneous population.

In our modern democracies this is almost never the case and it will always lead to some schmuck being left by the wayside because he is simply not counted.

Of course the other side of our modern democracies is that a thousand voices= a thousand opinions and the excuse of our governments that we elected is " you can't please everybody"
Or what translates as: If a thousand people shout you can hear no-one.

[iCad]

Religion can be a powerful motivator for good...or for bad. It depends on the situation. Really, for all of the pissing-on that the medieval Roman Catholic church gets, the world would not be the same place without it. It might be better...or it very well might be worse, given that the Catholic church is, for instance, ultimately how eastern (particularly Arabic) learning about, in particular, mathematics and science was disseminated to the Western world, as it was monks who did pretty much all of the necessary translating and copying of such "exotic" works, at the time. Like it or not, for all that The Church certainly committed its crimes, the so-called Dark Ages in Europe might have been a LOT longer without The Church.

So, there's good and bad in everyone and everything. Really, it all boils down to human nature. We are, indeed, pack animals, complete with an instinctive fear of The Other, that which is different from Us, whether "Us" is an individual, a family, a village, a country, or an entire culture. Religion is one of those dividing lines, like race or nationality or sexual orientation or political affiliation or dozens of other things, that can and sometimes does separate Us from Them. Individually, people will usually keep their heads, but those occasions when the pack mentality sets in is when problems begin. And it doesn't matter if the pack mentality is initiated by a religion or by, say, sports fanaticism.

IMO, any kind of fanaticism that compels a person harm another is bad, and there is absolutely no justification for it. This applies to fanatical pro-lifers who kill doctors who perform abortions. It applies to terrorists, whatever their motivation, political or ideological/religious or anything else. It also applies to sports hooligans who feel it's OK to go out and riot, damage property, and injure and sometimes even kill people just because their team lost the Big Event. It's all equally disgraceful, IMO. And they're all examples of pack mentality, an unfortunate evolutionary relic of ours. It'll be a good day when that quality finally "breeds out." But the cynic in me says that it never will.

[Tempscire]

Democracy was great in Ancient Greece, where they had a homogeneous population.

In our modern democracies this is almost never the case and it will always lead to some schmuck being left by the wayside because he is simply not counted.
Ha. Ancient Greece had a homogeneous voting population, for sure, because they had a number of barriers to participation. Women, for example, could be considered "left by the wayside" because they were "simply not counted," (they were citizens, but had no political status) along with freed slaves and adult men who had not completed their military service. More importantly is the effort to protect the minority even when democratic vote has overruled them, which at least our modern democracies attempt to do, and it's easier to be heard (not always a good thing for all causes--I've heard it argued that Nazism got its foot in the door in part to an 'excess' of allowing a little party access to too much voice) in an official capacity.

[opiumgirl]

Ha. Ancient Greece had a homogeneous voting population, for sure, because they had a number of barriers to participation. Women, for example, could be considered "left by the wayside" because they were "simply not counted," (they were citizens, but had no political status) along with freed slaves and adult men who had not completed their military service.

You are right of course, I should have been clearer.
I just feel that people tend to glorify democracy. Sure it works better than most forms of government but it isn't the holy grail. In reality a lot of democracies are so corrupt that they might as well be dictatorships.

Anyway I am off topic. My point was that you find fanaticism everywhere, not just in religion and I think all forms of fanaticism is dangerous

[Mistermook]

If something "might as well" be something, there's usually a fair case for it actually being that sort of thing.

[Zennia]

Define religious fanaticism, please.

[kiwi_tea]

Define religious fanaticism, please.Faith without evidence.

Now we need to distinguish between dangerous and harmless fanaticism. :P

[KKiryu007Joker]

Faith without evidence.

Now we need to distinguish between dangerous and harmless fanaticism. :P

Well... fanatics are generally supposed to be harmful. Aren't they overzealous?

[kiwi_tea]

Nothing about the word "fanatic" implies "harmful". Overzealous and uncritical isn't necessarily harmful, although often it is.

[opiumgirl]

Faith without evidence.
Now we need to distinguish between dangerous and harmless fanaticism. :P

Sorry Kiwi-Tea but I have to say that the definition of faith is belief without proof.
Fanatic is defined as: A person filled with excessive and often misguided enthusiasm for something.

This can not be good in my opinion, because it is excessive.

While I'm at it the definition for zealot is: An uncompromising or extreme partisan; a fanatic. this excludes the Jewish meaning, which is not of relevance in this conversation.

Bigot: An obstinate and intolerant believer of a religion or political belief etc.

So as far as I am concerned my worst nightmare is a fanatical, zealous, bigot.
I can't see how any of those by it self can be anything but harmful. Together they are a disaster! Sadly I know a few of those.

[kiwi_tea]

Faith without evidence is excessive and misguided confidence in a position.

[opiumgirl]

Faith without evidence is excessive and misguided confidence in a position.

I agree with you because I personally find this kind of thinking distasteful and basing your life on what amounts to wishful thinking is just silly.

But faith in general is not the same as fanaticism.

You can have a perfectly harmless person believing in X religion or you can have person B believe in same religion, but as a fanatic B's actions would never occur to the normal person.

I think religion lends itself to this kind of thing particularly, which is why I don't think we will get anywhere as a species until we let go of it altogether.

[Bodhie]

My grand ma always said to take or do thing with moderation . When I started playing BG2 , the Balance Jaheira spoke of stayed with me . When I opened my eyes to the truth of my own religion (I won't name it so I can stay alive) , I noticed the whole world is screw up .

I think (and that's just me) the world need balance (between good and bad) instead of sticking with one extreme (either ALL good , or ALL bad) .
I think that religion shouldn't be a religion but a philosophy . I mean pratice it , talk about it , debate about but don't make it the air that you breath or the blood in your veine .
And when we do , it become an addiction . Like our mind is clouded .
So I see as an addiction mostly . A dangerous addiction of course .
I personaly don't believe in God persé (I did , a long time ago ) . And I'm not a no-believer either . I just think that I do not have the answer , and since I do not I cannot say he does or doesn't exist . (my mom think I'm an atheist :( even though I tried to explain I'm not lol) .

But when I see zealot doing evil (or hear about them like in past history) . Sometimes I wonder if they didn't have another purpose like taking on others zealot . Therefor is their existance needed more then we think ?
Then again , I play too much RPG lol and when I think zealot I think Paladin of Radiant Heart LOL and Annoymen !

But real life is more complicated then a game . So yeah , it goes back to it is a sort of addiction that touch things like our soul that even science cannot see with a microscope .
But to me it is like this : Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
☻Albert Einstein

[opiumgirl]

My grand ma always said to take or do thing with moderation . When I started playing BG2 , the Balance Jaheira spoke of stayed with me . When I opened my eyes to the truth of my own religion (I won't name it so I can stay alive) , I noticed the whole world is screw up .

I think (and that's just me) the world need balance (between good and bad) instead of sticking with one extreme (either ALL good , or ALL bad) .
I think that religion shouldn't be a religion but a philosophy . I mean pratice it , talk about it , debate about but don't make it the air that you breath or the blood in your veine .
And when we do , it become an addiction . Like our mind is clouded .
So I see as an addiction mostly . A dangerous addiction of course .
I personaly don't believe in God persé (I did , a long time ago ) . And I'm not a no-believer either . I just think that I do not have the answer , and since I do not I cannot say he does or doesn't exist . (my mom think I'm an atheist :( even though I tried to explain I'm not lol) .

But when I see zealot doing evil (or hear about them like in past history) . Sometimes I wonder if they didn't have another purpose like taking on others zealot . Therefor is their existance needed more then we think ?
Then again , I play too much RPG lol and when I think zealot I think Paladin of Radiant Heart LOL and Annoymen !

But real life is more complicated then a game . So yeah , it goes back to it is a sort of addiction that touch things like our soul that even science cannot see with a microscope .
But to me it is like this : Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
☻Albert Einstein

I totally get what you are saying and are you sure we did not have the same grandmother? ;)

I also play rpg's and I think Baldur's Gate is the best of the best so I get your reference. :beer:
I do think that paladins in general are a good example of religious fanaticism.
It is like this: I feel justified in burning your town because you did evil. The one survivor from the town goes and burns your village because you're very evil and burnt his town, yes? So it goes on and on...
I often think that if people would see things more simply, like for example you suggested in terms of a game, we would have a lot less grey areas to debate. But alas people and their motives are more complicated.
I do agree about balance. It is important in all things.

[Bodhie]

I totally get what you are saying and are you sure we did not have the same grandmother? ;)

I also pay rpg's and I think Baldur's Gate is the best of the best so I get your reference. :beer:
I do think that paladins in general are a good example of religious fanaticism.
It is like this: I feel justified in burning your town because you did evil. The one survivor from the town goes and burns your village because you're very evil and burnt his town, yes? So it goes on and on...
I often think that if people would see things more simply, like for example you suggested in terms of a game, we would have a lot less grey areas to debate. But alas people and their motives are more complicated.
I do agree about balance. It is important in all things.

lol Thanx!
But my Grand Ma passed away (about 5years ago) and in the crazyness I lived in . It was soooo weird to have someone like her around . She never went to school , she never learned how to write and READ . And yet , in all the zealot in my familly she had a clear mind (not the foggy mind that give you the following answer : Believe and Shut up!) .
So I'm guessing that no education MAY have something to do with her being no crazy . Either that or she was Budha reincarnated LOL

It is like this: I feel justified in burning your town because you did evil. The one survivor from the town goes and burns your village because you're very evil and burnt his town, yes? So it goes on and on...
One thing come to mind lol Pain/Nagato Vs NAruto LOL
(sorry couldn't help myself)

from not knowing , we grow afraid , from not understanding we grow angry , from anger we grow hate , from hate we grow war .
Now I'm sounding like a githzerai LOL
Well in P.T Dak'kon did say something like :
Dak'kon: When a mind does not *know* itself, it is flawed. When a mind is flawed, the man is flawed. When a man is flawed, that which he touches is flawed. It is said that what a flawed man sees, his hands make broken.

[opiumgirl]

One thing come to mind lol Pain/Nagato Vs NAruto LOL
(sorry couldn't help myself)

from not knowing , we grow afraid , from not understanding we grow angry , from anger we grow hate , from hate we grow war .

When a mind does not *know* itself, it is flawed. When a mind is flawed, the man is flawed. When a man is flawed, that which he touches is flawed. It is said that what a flawed man sees, his hands make broken.

I think we will agree on this, you illustrate it perfectly and if I did not know you were referring to an anime I would say you were quoting the Dalai Lama.

[Bodhie]

Maybe that's why we play rpg ? they have strong faith/destiny/choices ?
And a + you can actually make a difference in the game while in real life as soon as you think 'I wanna make a difference' alot of POPUP show up out of nowhere . It is like this giant spider nest..and all the threads goes everywhere..you start following one that seem good , and you end up in a crossroad that goes everywhere but you don't know where it goes , and if the end road is safe .

In the real world , we try to fix the peoples , the world around us . But in budhism (and I'm not a budhist! I just read naruto alot lol well you've got lot of budha influence in there) , it urge (from what my limited brain can understand) to fix oneself . And when we do....each one of us...maybe then the world will stop looking blurry . And I'm just wishing out loud lol

[opiumgirl]

In the real world , we try to fix the peoples , the world around us . But in budhism (and I'm not a budhist! I just read naruto alot lol well you've got lot of budha influence in there) , it urge (from what my limited brain can understand) to fix oneself . And when we do....each one of us...maybe then the world will stop looking blurry . And I'm just wishing out loud lol

I think that might be the problem. We are so quick to try and fix other people.

I know in my neighborhood there is a tendency for teenagers when they finish school to either go and do missionary work in Africa or just to go to a country in Africa and to try and help the "poor people"
I find this ridiculous, because first of all, missionaries?
And secondly: why are you going of to another country to help the poor when people are begging in the streets for food in your own neighborhood?
My conclusion is that all this charity has nothing to do with the "poor people" and everything to do with them feeling good about themselves for being so "caring"

But when you work on yourself as a person, you come to see things from a different perspective. People who come into contact with you, gets impacted by your perspective (just as they do in any case) and little by little it does spread outwards. Because you are in a better mood, don't fly off the handle or get depressed or whatever. Your friends see that.

Ultimately no person is responsible for another person (unless you are a child) and every single person has to make his or her own choice. We also have to allow them to do so.

[Bodhie]

I think that might be the problem. We are so quick to try and fix other people.

I know in my neighborhood there is a tendency for teenagers when they finish school to either go and do missionary work in Africa or just to go to a country in Africa and to try and help the "poor people"
I find this ridiculous, because first of all, missionaries?
And secondly: why are you going of to another country to help the poor when people are begging in the streets for food in your own neighborhood?
My conclusion is that all this charity has nothing to do with the "poor people" and everything to do with them feeling good about themselves for being so "caring"

But when you work on yourself as a person, you come to see things from a different perspective. People who come into contact with you, gets impacted by your perspective (just as they do in any case) and little by little it does spread outwards. Because you are in a better mood, don't fly off the handle or get depressed or whatever. Your friends see that.

Ultimately no person is responsible for another person (unless you are a child) and every single person has to make his or her own choice. We also have to allow them to do so.

I agree and I disagree at the same time with you . (don't hate me lol)
I agree because something similar to this came out , a friend of mine wanted to go Afghan country when she was living in X country to do good .
I asked her the same thing as you did ' don't you have poor peoples in your X country ?' .
The reply was 'Yes but never as bad as in Afghan' .

I also agree about missionary . Now I personally never met one (so I shouldn't speak) but aren't there more like : 1-convert first , feed next ?

I disagree on the fact that outside help should be stopped . (if that happen , the other X country are doomed .) .

I think outside help is GOOD , but as for now it is totally blind...it is donating but don't know to whome . So maybe they should LOOK before giving . In others words I mean instead of giving $$$ to feed (and that food will be hijacked in the way and never reach it destination ) maybe the $$$ should be put to clean up corruption and whats stealing say in this exemple the food .

[opiumgirl]

I disagree on the fact that outside help should be stopped . (if that happen , the other X country are doomed .) .

I think outside help is GOOD , but as for now it is totally blind...it is donating but don't know to whome . So maybe they should LOOK before giving . In others words I mean instead of giving $$$ to feed (and that food will be hijacked in the way and never reach it destination ) maybe the $$$ should be put to clean up corruption and whats stealing say in this exemple the food .

I don't hate you for disagreeing with me this is a debate,
you are more than welcome to :)

Now, I am disagreeing with you.
I never said international aid to disadvantaged countries should be stopped. I did say that feel-good, bleeding hearts that want to to do good should look around them first before going off to another country to help other people.
I also said that we can accomplish more by trying to better ourselves than by trying to better others.

Also this whole idea to better other people for their own good by giving them stuff, tastes wrong to me. It makes me think of the old saying: give a man a fish and he will want another fish, teach him to fish and he can get his own fish.

[Bodhie]

Oh ok , sorry I misunderstood there lol

Minsc said something like that only he changed the last bit :Minsc: You should have given a sword, give a man a fish and he feeds himself for a day, give a man a sword and he can chow down on the ,eaty marrow of evil!

But isn't our individuality the real problem here ? I mean , you can teach someone to fish and he will learn to fish and with time his lifestyle will probably goes from very poor to poor then to normal and so on . And someone else will be taught the same thing , and he will react differently . He will despise the fish , the fishing or the fact that you thought you could teach him how to fish !

[Elyasis]

I don't hate you for disagreeing with me this is a debate,
you are more than welcome to :)

Now, I am disagreeing with you.
I never said international aid to disadvantaged countries should be stopped. I did say that feel-good, bleeding hearts that want to to do good should look around them first before going off to another country to help other people.
I also said that we can accomplish more by trying to better ourselves than by trying to better others.

Also this whole idea to better other people for their own good by giving them stuff, tastes wrong to me. It makes me think of the old saying: give a man a fish and he will want another fish, teach him to fish and he can get his own fish.

Pretty sure these people in third world countries can fish fine. It's the fact that most have warlords literally mowing them down and stealing whatever meager sustenance they get that is a problem. Warlords financed by other warlords in Second/"First" world countries. That and climate change is much harder on people in a sustenance living situation. Infrastructure and access to clean water and education. And preferably no warlords having their goons cut them down at ridiculously young ages (in their bloody teens on AVERAGE). The fact that we are having to actually see this still in this century and it's not as important as bombing whatever countries got us in the fear blinders... It really says a lot. And none of it good.

[SimsLover50]

I don't mind going to another country to provide aid, relief, medical services and education. I don't much care for doing so, with the idea of converting or bringing religion to others.