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Née whiterider
retired moderator
#26 Old 21st Feb 2015 at 11:26 AM
Quote: Originally posted by ewenk7
...making vaccines outright mandatory seems like it's the sort of thing a dystopian government in a sci-fi movie would do to slip people mind-control drugs or something ridiculous like that...
The thing about this is that you can come up with a way to apply it to literally anything the government does.

"You mean you want the GOVERNMENT to be responsible for pavements? What if they use slightly acidic concrete that eats through the soles of your shoes to support the shoe industry, huh?"
"You mean you want the GOVERNMENT to be responsible for waste collection? What if they sift through your thrown-out letters to find personal information to blackmail you with, huh?"
"You mean you want the GOVERNMENT to be responsible for the fire and rescue service? What if they let the houses of political dissenters burn down, huh?"

And yes, all those things are possible, but the solution isn't to lock your doors and install an air recycler and never let a public official within 200 metres of you again.

And in fact, what we should be concerned about is private companies, since they have all the same ability to abuse their power, economic and social forces which essentially make using their products and services mandatory, and far less compunction and accountability than government does.

"You mean you want a PRIVATE COMPANY to be responsible for making our computers? What if they put a load of malware on them which could be used to steal personal information, huh?"
"You mean you want a PRIVATE COMPANY to be responsible for providing utilities? What if they discriminate against poor people by refusing to let them have cheap tariffs, huh?"
"You mean you want a PRIVATE COMPANY to be responsible for holding people's money? What if they piss it all away gambling on the sly, fail to make it back, and cause a global financial crisis which leaves people who had accounts with them bankrupt, huh?"

The fact is that if we're going to assume that everything's a slippery slope, we might as well go back to living up trees right away. If you want to live in a society with organised social structures and institutions, you've got to come up with ways of controlling those institutions, and then you've got to decide at some point that they are sufficiently under control and you're going to turn your attention to something else.
And you've also got to recognise that "But the law says you can just stop [using electricity/using the bank/having a computer/throwing things away/getting vaccines]" actually wouldn't be a solution to any of those problems anyway, because 10% of people messing up their own lives by boycotting a service provided by a corrupt organisation isn't going to stop the organisation being corrupt, and it isn't going to provide a better and more secure solution to [refrigeration being amazing/storing your money under the mattress being insecure/needing the internet to function in modern society/waste being a thing that exists/measles], either.

What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact.
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Spice Pony
#27 Old 21st Feb 2015 at 5:31 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Nysha
[Long post]

Precisely what I was trying to say.
Top Secret Researcher
#28 Old 21st Feb 2015 at 5:53 PM
Quote: Originally posted by ewenk7
That said, the Nightly Show recently had an anti-vaccine person on who mentioned a confirmed case of a vaccine causing brain damage. While I'm still wary about the idea of endangering the population to avoid a rare side-effect, I am curious as to the details of this. It never hurts to be better-informed. Anyone know?


Yes, it's entirely possible that vaccinations can cause health problems. A child could have an allergic reaction to the vaccine. They could get brain damage in a tiny number of cases. Incredibly rarely, they could die.

You know what else can cause permanent brain damage and death? The diseases we vaccinate against. In fact, vaccines have a far lower death or disability rate than these diseases. The only reason we have a greater focus on the vaccines is that you can't sue a disease.
Spice Pony
#29 Old 22nd Feb 2015 at 12:37 AM
I feel like I'm unwittingly playing devil's advocate in this thread--not because of anything I'm saying, but based on the reactions I'm getting. Eh, I guess you can't have a debate thread without debate.

Quote: Originally posted by hugbug993
Yes, it's entirely possible that vaccinations can cause health problems. A child could have an allergic reaction to the vaccine. They could get brain damage in a tiny number of cases. Incredibly rarely, they could die.
How would that even work, though? Are you saying it's an allergic reaction? Is that a thing allergies can do?

Great. As if I wasn't already enough of a hypochondriac about my environmental allergies. Screw you, human physiology. Aren't actual pathogenic diseases already bad enough without you randomly deciding to try to kill us over harmless substances?



*ahem*

My anti-nature rant aside, if I am understanding you right, and it's an allergy thing, the anti-vaccination crowd has even less of a leg to stand on. Allergies suck, but we understand them. They can be tested for. They can be circumvented. So a possible allergic reaction isn't really a great argument against vaccinating.
Theorist
#30 Old 22nd Feb 2015 at 12:51 AM
Quote: Originally posted by ewenk7
Allergies suck, but we understand them. They can be tested for. They can be circumvented. So a possible allergic reaction isn't really a great argument against vaccinating.


Actually I don't think we really understand allergies. We're aware of their symptoms. We can address the symptoms. We can test for them, but other than that there's a lot unknowns. It's just not an incredibly high priority since when someone's got an antigen response from stuff most of the time the symptoms can be treated or the allergen can be avoided. Besides, where's the money in curing people when you can keep them sick and keep selling tons of benadryl?

What causes allergies?
Top Secret Researcher
#31 Old 22nd Feb 2015 at 6:15 PM
Quote: Originally posted by ewenk7
How would that even work, though? Are you saying it's an allergic reaction? Is that a thing allergies can do?
...
My anti-nature rant aside, if I am understanding you right, and it's an allergy thing, the anti-vaccination crowd has even less of a leg to stand on. Allergies suck, but we understand them. They can be tested for. They can be circumvented. So a possible allergic reaction isn't really a great argument against vaccinating.


Allergies can kill or cause brain damage, yes. However, those are extremely severe cases. If the throat swells to the point of cutting off air - which some allergies can do - the oxygen deprivation can damage the brain or kill you. On the bright side, a lack of oxygen causes euphoria - which is why erotic asphyxiation is a thing - so you'll die happy, possibly in a sexually aroused state. Not that that's very comforting.

But that's not what I'm talking about. Vaccines are made of two things: weakened forms of the virus and chemicals that boost the immune system. The weak virus is there to act as a practice dummy. The immune system learns that it's a threat and figures out how to kill it. (This is one reason a vaccine for HIV is a problem; the virus attacks the immune system itself.)
Then we have the chemicals. These are carefully formulated to work properly in the majority of human bodies. Problem is, every single human body is different. Imagine trying to find a medicine that will work properly in 7 billion varieties of human. Most of us can process chemicals the same way, but there are always exceptions. There are people who are allergic to water and sunlight. Some people are born lacking vital organs, or with such deformities that they're incapable of life. There are even worse mutations that usually don't see the light of day, because they were so far outside the norm that their mother's body rejected them.
Yeah, nature sucks. So a vaccine chemical that makes some people healthier can cause reactions in someone else's body that will trigger parts of the brain in ways they shouldn't, or cause the immune system to become hyperactive, or whatever.

The most likely explanation for vaccine-related neural problems - since I'm not a pharmacologist or chemist and don't know the specifics - is that the child's brain was abnormal in a safe way i.e. non-threatening. When they got the vaccination, it found unusual chemicals and interacted with them. That could mean creating chemicals that trigger areas, cause shutdowns, cause pathways to close, etc.

If this is true, then detecting these problems is going to be difficult. Not because we can't, but because pinning down the exact mutations that cause problems - and finding ways around them - would require causing them in children. I trust you can see the ethical problems with that.
Mad Poster
#32 Old 22nd Feb 2015 at 7:05 PM
Quote: Originally posted by hugbug993
On the bright side, a lack of oxygen causes euphoria - which is why erotic asphyxiation is a thing - so you'll die happy, possibly in a sexually aroused state. Not that that's very comforting.


That depends on the circumstances. It's true that some people will go into an euphoric state when choked, and lack of oxygen over some time can cause hallusinations, but If you're choking on food or because your throat is swelling, you're not exactly going to be happy before you pass out. More afraid and panicked.

As for allergies and vaccines, some viruses are grown in chicken eggs, which means people with egg allergy shouldn't take those. If they do, they can get a severe reaction. There are probably also other things in the vaccines that some people don't even know they're allergic to. They might not even be allergic, but overly sensitive, which might be why the supposed reactions don't come until a while later, perhaps similar to how food intolerances operate (you don't get an allergic reaction, but might notice a reaction like stomach pain, but continous exposure over time can cause inflammations in the body or even more severe diseases). Virus infections can also trigger changes in the DNA (actually, a lot of our DNA contains inactive parts of viruses), so if the virus in the vaccine isn't properly tamed, who knows what it might get up to in the body?

Anyway, just remember that the number of people who get such reactions is much, much smaller than for those who don't get any reactions at all to the vaccines. It's possible they had underlying disease or DNA mutations that the vaccine somehow triggered, or perhaps it wasn't the vaccine that caused it. In some cases, the changes in the kids might have happened even if they didn't get the vaccine.
Lab Assistant
#33 Old 22nd Feb 2015 at 9:49 PM
I believe that vaccines should be mandatory for working at any government ran or controlled workplace and any medical facility and should be required for attending government-ran institutions such as public schools, community colleges, and state universities. For those who rely on the government less, they should not be required to get vaccinated. Dealing with families with children who truly cannot vaccinate their children due to medical reasons is a morally ambiguous grey area. Either they should be given vouchers for private or charter schools or the should be allowed to attend public schools in months where there is no outbreaks in the area. Home schooling and paying for private school should be an option for all who can do it.

--Ocram

Always do your best.
Theorist
#34 Old 22nd Feb 2015 at 10:24 PM
When "weighing" risks for things like vaccines it's important to realize that some of these vaccines have been taken by literally billions of people. It's possible you're a unique snowflake that gets sick from them, but it's not like there isn't a wealth of data suggesting that you aren't.There aren't many medical treatments known to humanity that have as much depth to their statistical data as vaccines. Maybe aspirin and putting bones in casts or something, but not much else.
Mad Poster
#35 Old 15th Mar 2015 at 10:16 PM
Quote: Originally posted by r_deNoube
So if I'm bi, did I miss a booster shot or something?

I missed my MMR booster, and it was around that time that I realised I was bisexual. Oh my goodness, they're right! :-D

On the other hand, though, I have since had the MMR vaccinations that I needed to complete the set, but it hasn't made me a lesbian....
Lab Assistant
#36 Old 27th Jul 2015 at 11:53 PM
Just vaccinate your child and yourself. If you really want to know about these vaccines, ask your doctor. Asking questions may actually help you!

Yeah I know... foreign concept right? Assumptions aren't always what's best.
Banned
#37 Old 31st Jul 2015 at 4:30 PM Last edited by Aaron4Ever : 4th Aug 2015 at 10:49 PM.
Now if we're talking lethal stuff like Ebola, and the new vaccine that came out, that is a definite yes, if in West Africa.
Everything else, I ACTUALLY DON'T KNOW.
Theorist
#38 Old 1st Aug 2015 at 1:43 AM
When vaccines are tested safe, I'm fully in favor of mandatory when necessary. Public health of both the patients and other people are more important than some religious freedoms. And I especially don't want to become ill or even die, because of people deciding to choose a certain way of life.

god decides


The gorgeous Tina (TS3) and here loving family available for download here.
Scholar
#39 Old 1st Aug 2015 at 8:37 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Anti-Vaccine argument:
*Diseases that vaccines target have essentially disappeared

Thanks to vaccines.

And thanks to idiot anti-vaxxers they're making a return. The people most affected are those who cannot receive vaccines for whatever health reason and instead rely on herd immunity. But hey, what's a few innocent people dying from preventable diseases. At least your kid didn't get autism like that blog said would totally happen.

I'm writing a TV series, yeah. It's a cross between True Detective and Pretty Little Liars.
Instructor
#40 Old 5th Aug 2015 at 4:15 PM
Watch and laugh (safe for work unless your boss is a highly-opinionated anti-vaxxer): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDjz5qHIzsc
Scholar
#41 Old 21st Aug 2015 at 5:49 PM
I have my doubts though about pushing vaccins for diseases that mutate fast and which are not deadly for people with a healthy immune system, like for example influenza. The smaller groups that are at risk should ( if possible considering the side effects) maybe get them, like elders. But for the rest of the people it is a waste of money and only at the benefit of the pharmaceutical industry.
Same goes for the very bad practice in some countries of prescribing antibiotics for minor things, even for virus infections like the common cold lol. In such cases it is a waste of money and it even is risky (bacteria becoming resistant against antibiotics). I find it unbelievable that a physician prescribes medicine that they know won't cure their patient's ailment.
Scholar
#42 Old 30th Aug 2015 at 5:05 AM Last edited by mithrak_nl : 30th Aug 2015 at 5:59 PM.
Disagreeing without backing it up with a reason in the debate section is poor form imo.

EDIT :Seriously, stop hitting disagree in this section. It is quite useless if the person who posted a comment doesn't know what part has been disagreed on (obviously not meaning this post, because it only has one statement). That is not really a debate then, is it?
 
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