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New Creator Theme: Elders! - posted on 1st Sep 2018 at 11:43 AM
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Undead Molten Llama
#426 Old 2nd May 2010 at 10:52 PM
An answer to something brought up in the abortion thread, where I mentioned something about sperm not being able to produce life by itself:

Quote:
Originally Posted by fakepeeps7
Tell that to the Church!

What's the big deal about masturbation and "spilling your seed", then?


Which "Church" do you mean? The Bible says nothing about masturbation, specifically, and different denominations and different Christians have greatly differing views about whether or not it is a sin, usually depending upon their interpretation of (mostly New Testament) Scripture. Those that consider it a sin tend to do so because they equate it with lust and fornication, not because it "wastes sperm," so to speak. The "wasting sperm" thing might have been more the thinking when it was thought that it was ONLY sperm that were required to produce a pregnancy, but certainly not so much now that we know differently.

In terms of spilling seed, I'm guessing you're talking about Onan in Genesis who "spilled his seed on the ground?" If so, he was killed not for "spilling seed" but for disobedience. He was ordered to impregnate his childless brother's widow to continue his family line (This was customary, at the time, not considered "icky"), but he refused and, moreover, did so passively by engaging in coitus interruptus with his brother's widow. This is what the euphemism refers to. It doesn't mean that sperm is somehow sacred, and this isn't, as I said, why Onan was subsequently killed.

I'm mostly found on (and mostly upload to) Tumblr these days because, alas, there are only 24 hours in a day.
Muh Simblr! | An index of my downloads on Tumblr.
Scholar
#427 Old 2nd May 2010 at 10:50 PM
Doesn't the Vatican teach against masturbation? And I know there are fundamentalists (the pro-abstinence-only kind) who are against masturbation as well.

Is that a shillelagh in your pocket, or are you just sinning against God?
Undead Molten Llama
#428 Old 2nd May 2010 at 10:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekowolf
Doesn't the Vatican teach against masturbation? And I know there are fundamentalists (the pro-abstinence-only kind) who are against masturbation as well.


Like I said, views vary greatly amongst different denominations and even more greatly between individual Christians. I'm sure the Vatican doesn't like it. And like I said, many churches/Christians equate it with lust and fornication, on the theory that if you aren't thinking lustful thoughts, you'll have no desire to masturbate. So...it depends. Were you to ask me, I'd say that it depends on the motivation behind the deed. As a female, I know that there are certain times of the month when...Well, let's just say that it has more to do with the reproductive hormones/drive than it has to do with lustfulness.

I'm mostly found on (and mostly upload to) Tumblr these days because, alas, there are only 24 hours in a day.
Muh Simblr! | An index of my downloads on Tumblr.
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#429 Old 2nd May 2010 at 11:06 PM
I meant the Catholic church.

And yes, I was referring to Onan. While that may be a story about disobedience, it seems that a lot of Christians (Catholic and otherwise) view masturbation as a sin, and I have seen that passage referred to when people are arguing against masturbation.

I guess I just don't get why it's such a no-no. It doesn't hurt anyone else... unless you truly believe that you're "using up" all your boys when you masturbate (but you'd have to be completely ignorant about biology to believe that).
Undead Molten Llama
#430 Old 3rd May 2010 at 12:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fakepeeps7
I meant the Catholic church.


Ah. Well, the simple answer, then, is that the Catholic church is weird. No, I'm kidding. Most churches view the issue of masturbation as one of lustful thoughts. Like I said to Neko, the thinking goes that if you're not thinking about sex, you'll have no desire to masturbate. So, really, it's the thoughts that are sinful, not the actual act.

Me, personally, I think that God's expectations don't change, but the way that our modern, Western society has developed has made it a lot harder to live up to them. In Biblical times, marriages were arranged, conditions in which divorce was allowed were very narrow, and people were married young, out of necessity because life was short. Taking your sweet time to find someone that you loved didn't enter into the equation. Marriage had nothing to do with love. So, sexual drives were channeled early and pretty securely, giving people "sanctified" outlets for their drives. That doesn't apply so much today. I do my best to obey the rules. For instance, I'm divorced, and I take very seriously Jesus's teachings about divorce and adultery; I have not been with a man since my divorce and will not do so unless and until my ex-husband dies, at which point I'll be a free widow. But even so, I think it likely that God makes allowances for the changes in our society, even though his expectations don't change. We no longer generally marry as young teenagers anymore, and the drives are very strong. Of course God knows that.

Quote:
And yes, I was referring to Onan. While that may be a story about disobedience, it seems that a lot of Christians (Catholic and otherwise) view masturbation as a sin, and I have seen that passage referred to when people are arguing against masturbation.


So have I. But Christians use Biblical passages incorrectly all the time, twisting it and selectively quoting it to make it seem to agree about whatever issue they have a bug up their butt about. Just as people who want to disparage the Bible will do. The story about Onan is perhaps a bit more difficult to understand (and is therefore easier to twist) if you don't understand the culture and therefore understand the reason why Onan was screwing his sister-in-law and the reason why he ended up dead.

Quote:
I guess I just don't get why it's such a no-no. It doesn't hurt anyone else... unless you truly believe that you're "using up" all your boys when you masturbate (but you'd have to be completely ignorant about biology to believe that).


I think most believe, as I said, that it's the outcome of lustful thoughts, as is fornication, and that lustful thoughts are sinful. So I guess to them its not so much a sin as a symptom of a sin. Therefore, it's frowned upon. But not every Christian thinks that way. I think, as I said to Neko, that whether or not it's a sin depends on the motivation behind it. But that's just me.

I'm mostly found on (and mostly upload to) Tumblr these days because, alas, there are only 24 hours in a day.
Muh Simblr! | An index of my downloads on Tumblr.
Site Helper
#431 Old 3rd May 2010 at 12:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iCad
For instance, I'm divorced, and I take very seriously Jesus's teachings about divorce and adultery; I have not been with a man since my divorce and will not do so unless and until my ex-husband dies, at which point I'll be a free widow.


Wow... I find that incredibly sad. I don't think I could ever do that (assuming I was married, divorced, and subsequently in love with another person).

Is that a common point of view among Christians?
Undead Molten Llama
#432 Old 3rd May 2010 at 6:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fakepeeps7
Wow... I find that incredibly sad. I don't think I could ever do that (assuming I was married, divorced, and subsequently in love with another person).

Is that a common point of view among Christians?


There are some churches that will not marry divorced people, yes. The Catholic church tends to be one, although I've observed that individual parishes have relaxed quite a bit on that. But not all of them. Some Protestant churches will not marry divorced people, either. Usually, the ones that won't tend to swing more toward the Southern Baptist end of the spectrum. Of course, individual Christians have different ideas entirely separate from the ideas of any given church. There's this one guy I know who will rant about divorce itself, much less remarriage. We've had some interesting discussions.

In the end, I guess it's just a matter of what an individual Christian deems to be important. I have been led to follow closely the teachings of Jesus, not of any particular church. Jesus was very specific and clear about the issue of divorce and remarriage. (Matthew 5:31-32, with similar accounts in other Gospels.) Since I think that what Jesus said and taught are the most important things, I decided that I was going to obey Him when I was divorced. My roommate, also divorced, feels the same way. It's why we decided to live together because then we can share burdens and pool resources.

And for me, it is not sad and I do not feel at all deprived. But then, I'm often on the road, which isn't conducive to relationships. And when I'm not on the road, I'm something of a hermit. I don't want to be all social and dealing with people. Home time is my downtime. And celibacy is frankly easy for me, given things in my past. I'm sure it would not be easy for everyone. But even if it wasn't easy...it would still be the path that I'd choose because I have deemed it of the utmost importance to adhere to the teachings of Jesus. Not everyone feels the same way, for whatever reason.

I will say this, though: It amazes me how many Christians point at gay marriage as destructive and immoral and such...and yet have no problem with divorce and remarriage even though Jesus rather extensively and specifically condemned the latter. Something ain't right with that picture.

I'm mostly found on (and mostly upload to) Tumblr these days because, alas, there are only 24 hours in a day.
Muh Simblr! | An index of my downloads on Tumblr.
Lab Assistant
#433 Old 3rd May 2010 at 9:21 AM
Spilling seeds... for me it is a sin.
It is same if we are looking at males or females.
Males are spilling seeds consciously and unconsciously (e.g. asleep).
Females are spilling seeds consciously (using protection).
Although, I never found it in the Bible, I think that is sin.

Abandoned account...
Scholar
#434 Old 3rd May 2010 at 12:25 PM
Oh great. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Lovely.

Is that a shillelagh in your pocket, or are you just sinning against God?
Retired
retired moderator
#435 Old 3rd May 2010 at 2:46 PM
I still think this topic ought to come back to two things:

- Christianity is either taught or reached through a deep sorrow/cynicism, a lack of hope for the real world that manifests in an invented Hope in an invented World, rather than in analysis and ultimately real optimism.

- Faith requires a special desertion of one's reasoning faculties. One can 'doubt' in an abstract and unskeptical sort of way, but one MUST believe in one's invention by reason of doctrine. One's supposed 'doubt' usually includes the presumptive premise that a certain god exists in the first place. If one can make such exceptions for god, why not for vampires? It's a slippery slope to extreme relativism. Theism thrives on scriptural and intellectual vagueness - vagueness that allows it a god, but holds it back from vampires.

Everything else, without addressing those, is the equivalent of arguing about how many angels could dance of an invisible pink unicorn's horn.

CAW Wiki - A wiki for CAW users. Feel free to edit.

GON OUT, BACKSON, BISY BACKSON
Undead Molten Llama
#436 Old 3rd May 2010 at 5:33 PM
OK, I'll bite.

1) No. Or rather, maybe for some people. Maybe for a lot of people. But not for me. For me, I accept the premise that God, as in the Biblical God, exists, for various reasons. For various reasons, I would like to know Him better. The dictates of Christianity, which I have largely accepted as true, again for various reasons, make it quite clear what the path is to knowing God, both here on Earth and in the afterlife. I simply follow the path, just as I once followed the Eightfold Path when I practiced Buddhism, on the theory that by doing so I could achieve an enlightened state of being. I have since abandoned that path, for, yes, various reasons. For me, when it comes to Christianity, hope or lack thereof does not enter into the equation. Intellectual curiosity drives me more than anything else, quite honestly. I accept that God exists, and I want to know Him. There are many ways of coming to that knowledge. I indulge in all of them. It's exactly as simple and as complex as that.

2) Reason informs faith; faith sometimes informs reason. To me, the two are intertwined and are not mutually exclusive. But, really, what does such discussion devolve into? "Yes, it does/No, it doesn't." One can make reasoned arguments for God, but when one tries to do so, another person who doesn't believe in God will simply say, "That's not reasoning." At least, that's my experience. So, I have given up the effort. Such people seem to have a definition of "reasoning" that differs from my own and which seems to be based on insistence that anything having to do with God cannot possibly be reasoning, that reasoning can only be based on things that can be directly observed or concretely measured or backed up with physical evidence or what-have-you.

So, if we are going to have such a discussion, we need to agree on what reasoning is first. As far as I'm concerned, reasoning is simply the process of deducing (or inducing) inferences from given premises. It can be as simple as an Aristotelian syllogism. One can still reason even if the premise(s) from which one is working is/are entirely faulty, and one can deduce or induce incorrect inferences from a valid premise. So, what's your definition of reasoning? Let's start there.

I'm mostly found on (and mostly upload to) Tumblr these days because, alas, there are only 24 hours in a day.
Muh Simblr! | An index of my downloads on Tumblr.
Retired
retired moderator
#437 Old 3rd May 2010 at 6:11 PM
Well, my definition of reasoning matches yours, and while I agree that one can sort of 'reason' from false premises (or at least mime reasoning), I think a healthy skepticism guards against false premises. I'd tend to agree with your definition except for one caveat: Without a degree of skepticism, without a healthy state of doubt in the equation, most deduction is flawed and unreasonable. Precisely how much doubt is a matter for debate. I'd say that we turn taps on and water runs so often that we can safely assume, albeit with a certain level of doubt, that water runs from taps. I'd also say the scope for doubt about deities is as absolutely infinite as the grandest claims about them, especially if we go beyond the tentative statement 'one of an infinite number of deities might exist, or none' to a statement of outright faith such as 'Yahweh exists as Christ taught in the Bible and I commune with Him insofar as he allows it.' It's no more reasonable than the statement 'Vampires exist, but we can't see them, and they don't bite.' It builds its premises on hearsay and personal invention, with no safeguards against personal bias or error.

CAW Wiki - A wiki for CAW users. Feel free to edit.

GON OUT, BACKSON, BISY BACKSON
Lab Assistant
#438 Old 3rd May 2010 at 9:11 PM
God is gracious and merciful. He will forgive our all sins, we just need to repent.

Nekowolf, there's no good base in my opinion about mentioned sin, so search for second opinion.

What do you think about it?

Abandoned account...
Scholar
#439 Old 3rd May 2010 at 11:52 PM
1. Are you asking me directly? And 2. About what, sin? Masturbation? Repenting?

Is that a shillelagh in your pocket, or are you just sinning against God?
Site Helper
#440 Old 4th May 2010 at 12:39 AM
Repent! The end is nigh...

What am I repenting for, again?
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#441 Old 4th May 2010 at 12:52 AM
The brutal Fall that Yahweh forced upon his most loved creations, it's all your fault fakepeeps, so you better live right of there will be fire and gnashing of teeth. Plus, if you do, there's an effable happy place you'll get to.

CAW Wiki - A wiki for CAW users. Feel free to edit.

GON OUT, BACKSON, BISY BACKSON
Site Helper
#442 Old 4th May 2010 at 2:22 AM
But what if I want to choose to be gay?
Instructor
#443 Old 4th May 2010 at 2:37 AM
Christianity is actually more like cynical BS. I mean, fakepeeps, you do realize that many Christians believe in hell and that most people who go there are many of the sinners who reject the religion's teachings. I mean... Look at Zeitgeist the movie and you will see how God condemns men to hell but "he loves you". But christians will always respond, "Jesus loves you. Just go to him".

There are two sources that I will come up with...One from the atheist and the other from spiritual satanist.

http://www.evilbible.com/

http://exposingchristianity.com/

Know that People who believe in religious views very strongly often turn into criminals without any respect for other people. It doesn't mean that there are no good Christians out there. But there is one problem there is more christians that are stupid than there are those who are smart

God, please protect me from your idiot followers for they have blinded themselves with bleach.

Money doesn't buy you happiness but it buys you beer and coffee.

Life is like Go. Its takes smart and amoral people to make decisions based on their strategies of living.
Instructor
#444 Old 4th May 2010 at 2:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan17
God is gracious and merciful. He will forgive our all sins, we just need to repent.

Nekowolf, there's no good base in my opinion about mentioned sin, so search for second opinion.

What do you think about it?


Your god may be nice and all that but deep down instead there is hell. I rather go to hell and party or live with other sinners down on Earth during the Rapture so I can party all I want.

God, please protect me from your idiot followers for they have blinded themselves with bleach.

Money doesn't buy you happiness but it buys you beer and coffee.

Life is like Go. Its takes smart and amoral people to make decisions based on their strategies of living.
Scholar
#445 Old 4th May 2010 at 5:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xunixeon
Your god may be nice and all that but deep down instead there is hell. I rather go to hell and party or live with other sinners down on Earth during the Rapture so I can party all I want.


If you actually read the Bible, the hell of eternal torture, fire, brimstone, devils, etc. dosen't exist. It's all a creation of the Catholic Church durring the Middle Ages. The hell of the Bible is being seperated from God. The state of being an Atheist is equal to the hell of the Bible.

Sarcasm is a body's natural defense against stupid.
Lab Assistant
#446 Old 4th May 2010 at 8:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xunixeon
Your god may be nice and all that but deep down instead there is hell. I rather go to hell and party or live with other sinners down on Earth during the Rapture so I can party all I want.


I don't believe in hell. I have posted somewhere why and that's contradictory of our God.

Nekowolf, is repentance sin? I don't think so.

Abandoned account...
Scholar
#447 Old 4th May 2010 at 12:58 PM
...what the fuck are you talking about. When did I ever say that.

Is that a shillelagh in your pocket, or are you just sinning against God?
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retired moderator
#448 Old 4th May 2010 at 2:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kattenijin
If you actually read the Bible, the hell of eternal torture, fire, brimstone, devils, etc. dosen't exist. It's all a creation of the Catholic Church durring the Middle Ages. The hell of the Bible is being seperated from God. The state of being an Atheist is equal to the hell of the Bible.


That's absolutely untrue and only shows you haven't read the Bible. 'Gnashing of teeth', etc, are quotes taken directly from Christ's account of life after death for sinners.

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GON OUT, BACKSON, BISY BACKSON
Site Helper
#449 Old 4th May 2010 at 6:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xunixeon
Christianity is actually more like cynical BS. I mean, fakepeeps, you do realize that many Christians believe in hell and that most people who go there are many of the sinners who reject the religion's teachings.


Yes, I do realize that. My comment was meant to be facetious.
Lab Assistant
#450 Old 4th May 2010 at 8:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekowolf
...what the fuck are you talking about. When did I ever say that.


Quote:
1. Are you asking me directly? And 2. About what, sin? Masturbation? Repenting?


I was talking about spilling seeds because you wrote:

Quote:
Oh great. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Lovely.
.

Abandoned account...
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