If you were to lose one of your EP sims 2 discs, do you really think it's illegal to use a torrent?

Now, I'm not saying to link. DO NOT DO THAT.

I was just asking if YOU thought it would be illegal.

i don't know actually, it would be pretty crappy to spent €30 again tough...

That's what I mean!

Why would I want to spend my money AGAIN for a game I already own!?

What you think or feel does not factor in when you're talking about illegality. You can think something is legal all you want - the law and legal system really don't care about your thoughts. Unless you're a lawyer, your thoughts on it are meaningless.

Legality also varies from country to country.

If you lose your disks, scratch them, whatever - best thing to do is to contact EA for a replacement. If you've previously registered with them (or even if you haven't) they usually have some way to get replacements without paying the full price for the game again. Usually requires some proof of purchase (copy of your manual, copy of your receipt) and you may have to pay a little, but not as much as re-buying.

As IANAL and don't pretend to have any legal knowledge besides "EA has a shitload of lawyers" - therefore, when commenting here, remember - admitting to torrenting the game (even if you own it) or advocating theft of intellectual property in any way - even if you don't think it's theft - is not allowed here and such comments may be deleted or edited and the poster warned. The only way of playing the game we advocate is putting your original disk in the drive.

I don't think it's illegal. And who would know anyway?

On a side note - where I come from, this question sounds disturbingly naive... Cause here theft is all but sanctioned, and the property stolen is worth hundreds of millions of our currency, or any currency really.

I believe that with digital copyright people should have a right to get as many copies as they need, provided that you can prove to be a customer, and for only a small price of transport+media. After all, we are dealing here with something radically different than books, or any other traditional media, that costs a lot to produce. Also, these new media are highly susceptible to damage and loss of data.

I do get your point, but personally I would buy another disk. If spending another $30 or whatever it would cost was such an issue to me then it would be my fault for losing the disk or not looking after it properly and I should have been more careful. I thought I'd lost my Freetime disc a few weeks ago when I was reinstalling the game and although I didn't like it, I assumed I would just have to buy another disc and that it would perhaps teach me not to be so careless. Basically if you lose or damage a disc that's your fault, not EA's or anybody else's.

I have to agree with HystericalParoxysm and BewitchedPrue on this one. Legalities quite aside, I still don't think it's ethical at all: the fact a person loses/damages their bought property - or does not want to pay for something they want - is not anybody's fault but their own. The company (and the larger public in the end) should not have to pay for that. And if you think that if we as consumers will not pay for piracy, think again. Since I doubt there's corporate insurance for piracy, if EA starts losing money, where do you think they're going to recoup? Most likely areas: staffing (layoffs = less designers = lower quality product) and game pricing.

Yes, I also do not download movies or music - considering how many people I know that actually do, I'm somewhat of a rebel.

And I also have a nasty habit of misplacing/losing things - hence why every single game disc/box I own is in a cabinet beneath my computer desk, and nothing ever leaves unless I'm playing a different game in my desktop (M&GS stays in the disk drive, and then I switch it out for Sims 3 or SimCity 4, depending on what I feel like playing or doing that day - on a completely off-topic note, I think I need to make a new map for S2...)

Long story short: don't do it.

It's a product and like any product if you lose it you have to pay to replace it. If you lost your sunglasses would you think it was legal to steal another pair because you paid for the first one? This is no different might seem like it in your mind but it is the exactly the same.

No Clashfan and some other posters - it's not "like any other product". Not at all. It's a non-material product that the OP already PAID to use. He/she paid the developers to use their product. Is it illegal to download it - yes. Is it unethical - certainly not in this case. You people take this stuff waaay too seriously.

As long as you install it using your original registration code, I don't see why not? It's not any different from buying digital downlodes, is it?

EA controls the distribution of digital downloads. Downloading from any source not sanctioned by EA is illegal. The ethics of the issue are better discussed in the debate forum, I think, but the legality of the issue is factual and not a source of debate.

Actually, I don't think it is illegal. What is illegal is uploading a copy of the disk. But someone who downloads the disk probably is not violating any copyrights. Usually copyright infringment, and particularly criminal copyright infringement requires both copying and distribution. Now, when you download a copy to your computer, are you copying the work? I don't know. However, you are not distributing the copies to someone else.

Where I think some people got into trouble with things like Napster is that when you are downloading torrents, you also are making your copy available to others. That is, you become part of the network. In effect, you are distributing copies of the protected work.

But, legally, this is very much a grey area. A few years ago, the music publishers started filing lawsuits against people in these networking distribution outfits like Napster. It sort of backfired on them. Suing your customers is not a good way to build customer loyalty.

As far as the ethics, which is a different question than the legality, I see nothing wrong with it. Generally, one is allowed to make archival copies of copyrighted materials. It's considered to be fair use. In your case, you cannot make an archival copy from the original because it was lost or damaged. With the copy protection added to these disks, you may not have been able to make an archival copy even if it had not been lost or damaged. It just seems that you are trying to make an archival copy of a program which you already bought and paid for. This does not strike me as a particularly bad thing.

Now is there a difference in making an archival copy from a torrent as opposed to the original disk? I don't know. But as an ethical question, I don't see why it is OK to make an archival copy from your original disk, but why it would be bad to make an archival copy from a torrent. It would seem to be a distinction without a difference.

And yes, I am a lawyer. But I don't do intellectual property, which is a somewhat crazy area of the law. My official answer is: maybe yes, mayb no.

But, if you don't tell anyone, how are they going to find out?

Ummm, actually it is classed as "intellectual property", so would have the same legal implication as any material product you were purchasing.

Personally I wouldn't download from a torrent due to concerns about viruses. I rarely download anything from questionable sources these days.

Why not simply pick up a cheap used copy on Ebay? My Apartment Life CD is a bit scratched now, but that's MY fault, so it's MY responsibility to replace it. I certainly wouldn't go back to a shoe shop with shoes I've worn for some time and say "look, these shoes are worn out now, can you replace them please?" Same thing if I lost something. That's MY sorry luck.

You're just wrong. He/she paid the developers to use their "intellectual property" and should from that moment on have a right to use this "intellectual property". The CD itself is simply cheap material with a copy of the game on it. Losing the CD means you just lost a piece of plastic - you paid for the GAME not for the piece of plastic.

Would you call up a publishing company if you damaged or lost a book and demand a new copy, because after all, you "paid for the title, not for the pack of papers"? Would you go back to a car dealership and demand a new car after wrecking your current one because you "already paid for a [insert make and model here]?" The copy you paid for was contained on that 'piece of plastic'. The 30 dollars or euros or whatever you spent on it was for a single copy contained on that disc (or file) - why do you think each copy comes with a unique registration code? Same reason cars come with VINs - because that registration code/identification number was what you paid for. Not the title/make and model.

Deep philosophy about the soul not being the sum of its physical parts does not work for anything but the human mind.

(ForeverCamp out - I think mangaroo was trying to hint at the fact there's a thread already devoted to the topic of the ethical issues and we can't really deny that taking something you didn't pay for is theft).

Was it? I mean what are you really buying with your money? A piece of plastic, or something else.

According to the EULA, "Through an authorized purchase or transfer, you acquire and EA grants you a non‐exclusive license to install and use the Software for your personal, limited, non‐commercial use solely as set forth in this License and the accompanying documentation."

Assuming that the EULA is valid (which is a big assumption), you have not acquired a piece of plastic, but a license to install and use the software.

If you had purchased a piece of plastic, according to the "first sale" doctrine, you should be able to freely sell that piece of plastic to anyone you want. To use the analogy to a book: when you buy a book, you can freely sell it to another person. The publisher does not attempt to say "the purchaser is not allowed to read the book." However, EA attempt to put limitations on your ability to transfer your license -- so it is a very different beastie than a book sale.

Plus, a lot of people get their license by an electronic download. This means that there is no plastic disk, there never was, and there never will be. So it is pretty obvious that one is not purchasing a plastic disk, but something else, namely that license code needed to install the software.

Except NOBODY here was suggesting that the OP should call up Electronic Arts and ask for them to send him a free game because he lost his copy. That's not the issue at all, and that would be stupid, because they're not obligated to do so and because it's not their problem.

The ISSUE I was talking about was whether it's ethical/right to download something he lost. I said it is and I explained why it is.

Let's say you lost your sunglasses, would you go to the store and steal another pair just because you lost the first? It's no different except that this is in a digital format, it should be no ones fault except your own that you lost your game, EA has ways of dealing with this (As many people have mentioned above) so there really should be no excuse to go and steal the game which in the end just ends up hurting the players ( Because of widespread piracy in Brazil their games are a lot more expensive )

The debate forum is here: http://www.modthesims.info/forumdisplay.php?f=575

If someone has some facts to bring to the original question (is it legal?), post in this thread. If you want to examine the ethics of the issue, the debate room has comfy chairs and soundproof walls.

So what you're saying is, that you have to pay for the replacement? Because I recently just lost my OFB disc. And I unistalled it.

I probably looked stupid asking that :P

No dear, you're wrong. And for someone who tells everyone else not to take things so seriously, maybe you shouldn't take yourself so seriously.

Making a copy of a book costs real resources, much harder to get by then it's the case with plastic used in the production of new media. I'm not saying that trees take longer to grow than it takes oil to develop from fosile remains - I'm talking about the market conditions, current to our concerns. Producing printed material is more expensive, and obviously it would be almost impossible for a producer to replace a lost copy of a book than it is of a dvd or a cd, not to mention of something already stored on a server and downloadable w/o any media in between.

Honestly, I have no idea what's legal in this "grey area" - what I am saying is that we, as customers, should preassure the producers to treat downloads differently than they treat books, since obviously downloads are cheaper - cost of server maintenance is much cheaper than cost of printing company maintenence. Also, reporducing the said content is obviously different than reproducing a printed book, not to mention sunglasses. My point was ethical rather than legal - if it's cheaper to reproduce, and if it's by it's very nature much more susceptible to loss of data (not of media, mind u, but data stored!), then it should be legally treated differently.

And in my oppinion, if a law is not ethically grounded and it doesn't concur with what we call "common sense", than it's not legal in itself, and should be changed. History is replete with this kind of change. Perhaps our justified practical resistance to non-sensical laws will force their change.

I realize this is more of a philosophical, than practical position I try to maintain here, but I also believe it should be considered in practical issues as well - since these laws are what we deal with in our day-to-day lives. And they are not just, as well as not in the spirit of market. They take less to produce and are sold for more than many books that take more to reproduce and distribute. In other words: customers are being ripped off. So, dear, 1love1riku1, do as u please - u already payed. If the question is merely that u forgot to make a copy - which is legal - I don't see a reason why u should be punished for that. Errare humanum est, to say nothing about forgetfulness

I hope I'm not way of track here with this post. If I am, I apologize. I'm a sort of a philosopher, so I guess being off track is part of professional hazard that comes with the job.

No. The fact that you consider these two things to be the same is simply mind-boggling.

If I stole another pair of sunglasses, I would have ultimately gotten two pairs of sunglasses, for the price of one. This is not fair to the seller and maker of the sunglasses.

If I bought a game, it isn't a material thing - it is reproducible. I "own" infinite copies of that game which I paid for. I can install it on my sister's PC, I can install it on my work PC to play while I'm at work, I can reinstall it after formatting my PC hundreds and thousands of times. I don't have to pay EA another $30 for the game everytime I reinstall the game after it crashes. This is because, as I said, I own infinite copies of it for my own personal use.
And EA doesn't lose any money when I reinstall the game yet again. If I lost the disc, I lost the piece of plastic I purchased with the game on it. I will not expect to be reimbursed for the piece of plastic - but the game, I paid for it and it would be ethical of me to recover the game itself even if I can't find the piece of plastic it was initially stored on.

Sorry mangaroo, as this should go in the debate forum but as I feel strongly about this and people are still commenting, I had to just say it.

You can install/reinstall the game from the CD/DVD you've paid for as many times as you want. Similar to that, if you buy a movie DVD, you can watch that movie as many times as you want on any DVD player you like, but if you loose the DVD you have to buy a new one.