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- Christians Wrong About Heaven, Says Bishop
#1
17th Feb 2008 at 1:24 PM
Posts: 793
Christians Wrong About Heaven, Says Bishop
Quote:
Thursday, Feb. 07, 2008 By DAVID VAN BIEMA N.T. "Tom" Wright is one of the most formidable figures in the world of Christian thought. As Bishop of Durham, he is the fourth most senior cleric in the Church of England and a major player in the strife-riven global Anglican Communion; as a much-read theologian and Biblical scholar he has taught at Cambridge and is a hero to conservative Christians worldwide for his 2003 book The Resurrection of the Son of God, which argued forcefully for a literal interpretation of that event. It therefore comes as a something of a shock that Wright doesn't believe in heaven — at least, not in the way that millions of Christians understand the term. In his new book, Surprised by Hope (HarperOne), Wright quotes a children's book by California first lady Maria Shriver called What's Heaven, which describes it as "a beautiful place where you can sit on soft clouds and talk... If you're good throughout your life, then you get to go [there]... When your life is finished here on earth, God sends angels down to take you heaven to be with him." That, says Wright is a good example of "what not to say." The Biblical truth, he continues, "is very, very different." Read the full interview. |
Very interesting read. One that goes against the views of millions. So lets talk about what he said, and post our views on Heaven.
Erasing One Big Astounding Mistake All-around
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#2
17th Feb 2008 at 2:11 PM
Posts: 1,102
Hmm. Interesting. I don't really have any comments other than I do agree that mostly heaven is just described as 'paradise' within the Bible. Nothing much more.
Personally, my view of the afterlife is summarised by this quote:
"After your death you will be what you were before your birth" -- Arthur Schopenhauer
Because I wasn't anything before my conception (more accurate than birth these days, but that quote is from the 19th century), I don't think I will be anything after my death. If consciousness can begin, then it can end. Simple really.
Personally, my view of the afterlife is summarised by this quote:
"After your death you will be what you were before your birth" -- Arthur Schopenhauer
Because I wasn't anything before my conception (more accurate than birth these days, but that quote is from the 19th century), I don't think I will be anything after my death. If consciousness can begin, then it can end. Simple really.
Inventor
#3
17th Feb 2008 at 2:53 PM
Posts: 952
The man is right but how popular is anything that goes against popular christian teachings that have been rehearsed and emphasized for over two thousand years? Most people that study the bible as if looking at it for the first time without influence of outside prodding have a hard time agreeing with christian teachings. It is like a painting with many figures painted into one and some can point out some figures other than the dominant one.
A choice was made to introduce fear into Christianity and people were paid a pretty penny to come up with paintings to emphasize that fact. The funny thing about it all, people want to hold on to their original sin, heaven and hell as they somehow seem to feel more at home/comfortable with the fear of it all.:goodbad :sprint:
A choice was made to introduce fear into Christianity and people were paid a pretty penny to come up with paintings to emphasize that fact. The funny thing about it all, people want to hold on to their original sin, heaven and hell as they somehow seem to feel more at home/comfortable with the fear of it all.:goodbad :sprint:
#4
17th Feb 2008 at 3:06 PM
Posts: 2,177
It sounds like all he is saying is that there is a temporary spot in the afterlife until Christ creates the new heaven and the new earth, which will be a permanent home. I don't see anything particularly controversial about it. The book of Revelation tells us that God will create a new heaven and a new earth, that is the eternal resting spot. The idea of eternal heaven being cloudy with us as cute little angels with wings floating around is completely unbiblical...its a fantasy. God tells us in the Bible that He will create an eternal paradise...not that it has already been created. Believers who die right now, before Christ comes back, before Satan is vanquished forever, merely go to a temporary heaven, that will be recreated later. His position is fully supported by the Bible, and it is the exact teachings of my church as well...
There is a temporary, non-physical heaven, that acts as a temporary holding place, until Christ comes again. Once that happens, God will recreate the heavens and the earth, and since Satan will be completely vanquished, the new earth will be completely without sin, a paradise. At that point, we will be issued new bodies, to live forever. There are more details to that, but that is the basic idea.
umm...Isn't having other people carry your medical burden exactly what national health care is?
There is a temporary, non-physical heaven, that acts as a temporary holding place, until Christ comes again. Once that happens, God will recreate the heavens and the earth, and since Satan will be completely vanquished, the new earth will be completely without sin, a paradise. At that point, we will be issued new bodies, to live forever. There are more details to that, but that is the basic idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obama on ABC's This Week, discussing Obamacare
What it's saying is, is that we're not going to have other people carrying your burdens for you anymore
|
#5
17th Feb 2008 at 7:08 PM
Posts: 398
Thanks: 1166 in 16 Posts
Ah, N.T. Wright very good theologian. I appreciate that he's considered this idea of heaven more thoughtfully than a good deal of mainstream Christians. It makes sense, so much more than a disembodied place in the clouds does. I have not looked into it, but I suspect this kind of afterlife is what my church teaches as well, since my church greatly values environmental stewardship, and as Wright said, one would have no reason to preserve the body or the earth if it were going to vanish anyway (my church has actually been criticized by fundamentalist groups on that issue- ironic, huh?)
#6
17th Feb 2008 at 7:17 PM
Posts: 231
Interesting article indeed. In the end, it still really comes down to one person's opinion though. Death, like life, is exactly what you make of it.
#7
17th Feb 2008 at 9:39 PM
Posts: 657
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I've met that guy :D
He's completely right. Too many Christians are viewing Heaven as a safety net - they aren't enjoying life because they're comparing it to heaven too much, and not valuing all the good points on Earth because they see it as something imperfect. That's the wrong way to go about things.
I like this bit:
Anyway, there's no need for all the media sensationalism as though he's just condemned the whole Bible as fake. It's his opinion, he's taking a philosophical approach to the Bible and attempting to view it from different angles. That's a great thing to do, it means he's still open-minded about everything unlike many Christians who refuse to hear anything different than the exact print of the Bible word for word. He's what I'd call a modern thinker, and that's a good thing.
As for what I believe - when I get eaten by maggots and biodegrade into something mushy and horrible, my atoms are still going to exist and everything that makes up my body will still exist therefore "I" will still exist only not in a form I've experienced before. My energy will drift off into the cosmos, and eventually all of these things will someday come back together and be recycled into something living. So I believe in reincarnation But I can't explain it, so I'll wait until I've died to see what happens. Can't prove anything without experimenting.
He's completely right. Too many Christians are viewing Heaven as a safety net - they aren't enjoying life because they're comparing it to heaven too much, and not valuing all the good points on Earth because they see it as something imperfect. That's the wrong way to go about things.
I like this bit:
Quote:
If people think "my physical body doesn't matter very much," then who cares what I do with it? And if people think that our world, our cosmos, doesn't matter much, who cares what we do with that? |
Anyway, there's no need for all the media sensationalism as though he's just condemned the whole Bible as fake. It's his opinion, he's taking a philosophical approach to the Bible and attempting to view it from different angles. That's a great thing to do, it means he's still open-minded about everything unlike many Christians who refuse to hear anything different than the exact print of the Bible word for word. He's what I'd call a modern thinker, and that's a good thing.
As for what I believe - when I get eaten by maggots and biodegrade into something mushy and horrible, my atoms are still going to exist and everything that makes up my body will still exist therefore "I" will still exist only not in a form I've experienced before. My energy will drift off into the cosmos, and eventually all of these things will someday come back together and be recycled into something living. So I believe in reincarnation But I can't explain it, so I'll wait until I've died to see what happens. Can't prove anything without experimenting.
Mad Poster
#8
17th Feb 2008 at 9:45 PM
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When I read the entire new Testament, angels were supposedly not attractive at all with eyes all over them and I think they look like mutants. What we see as angels in the fantasy aspect is nothing at all like what it really is, as those angels are just humanized like everything else is humanized (i.e., cartoons for children always humanize animals to make them look more tolerable).
Since I'm an Agnostic I don't know what there would be. What about those who believe in reincarnation or who believe in complete nothingness? Are they just going to go to hell because they believe in those things and not in "Heaven?" There is no proof that there is a Heaven, Hell, reincarnation, nothingness, etc. It all boils down to faith. And I rely solely on logic than faith because faith is something that we invent, logic isn't.
I don't believe in something just because others believe in it or because we were raised to believe in it. If anything, that just makes me feel like a lemming. True, I have absolutely not the slightest knowledge in all of this. But at least I have read the New Testament (I tried the Old but it was way too long and repetitive and the New one is the one Christians are supposed to go by anyway). Again... no proof. I am way too afraid to become a Christian or any other religion because it would make me feel like I am just becoming a lemming because of the fact that there is no proof. And no, I am not calling anyone on here a lemming. I would just love to know what makes you guys believe in God, Heaven, etc. when there is no proof? And please spare me the joke that God talks to people because He doesn't. Why is it that I have asked Him for help and prayed to Him so many times during my Christian phases and not one answer have I ever received? Or is it just because I have committed blasphemy and did not know it and I'm now condemned for the rest of my life without any chance on going to "Heaven?" So, thus, making God want absolutely nothing to do with me, like a used up napkin waiting to be trashed? I don't know, it just seems like religion is all too silly and this whole Heaven thing was probably a great way to teach kids how to behave... much like the stupid Santa Clause belief. There are some Christians out there who do not even believe there is a hell, and that it is just a way to scare people so that they can start doing what is "right." I don't know, it just seems too Santa Clause-ish to me.
My mom's Pentecostal church claims that God speaks to them all the time. I used to watch them dance and shake and scream and sometimes they sounded like they were speaking Arabic which was them allegedly talking in tongues. Why can't I learn tongue language (not that I really want to, lol)? There is currently a woman who attends that church whose name is Rosita and they call her Rosita "La Profeta" which is Spanish for the "The Profit" because supposedly God talks to her and she finds out things when no one has even told her about it in the first place. And you all believe in this nonsense? Again, I am not trying to be rude here, but come on now! I think it's very insulting that I should be expected to be a fool. Sure, I had bad grades in school and I have A.D.D. and depression and my I.Q. is not as high as I would like it to be (it's average) but I also don't know why people have to expect me to be a fool. Then again, as mentioned before... it's all boiling down to faith. Faith... we invent. Logic... it's there to begin with and makes sense.
Since I'm an Agnostic I don't know what there would be. What about those who believe in reincarnation or who believe in complete nothingness? Are they just going to go to hell because they believe in those things and not in "Heaven?" There is no proof that there is a Heaven, Hell, reincarnation, nothingness, etc. It all boils down to faith. And I rely solely on logic than faith because faith is something that we invent, logic isn't.
I don't believe in something just because others believe in it or because we were raised to believe in it. If anything, that just makes me feel like a lemming. True, I have absolutely not the slightest knowledge in all of this. But at least I have read the New Testament (I tried the Old but it was way too long and repetitive and the New one is the one Christians are supposed to go by anyway). Again... no proof. I am way too afraid to become a Christian or any other religion because it would make me feel like I am just becoming a lemming because of the fact that there is no proof. And no, I am not calling anyone on here a lemming. I would just love to know what makes you guys believe in God, Heaven, etc. when there is no proof? And please spare me the joke that God talks to people because He doesn't. Why is it that I have asked Him for help and prayed to Him so many times during my Christian phases and not one answer have I ever received? Or is it just because I have committed blasphemy and did not know it and I'm now condemned for the rest of my life without any chance on going to "Heaven?" So, thus, making God want absolutely nothing to do with me, like a used up napkin waiting to be trashed? I don't know, it just seems like religion is all too silly and this whole Heaven thing was probably a great way to teach kids how to behave... much like the stupid Santa Clause belief. There are some Christians out there who do not even believe there is a hell, and that it is just a way to scare people so that they can start doing what is "right." I don't know, it just seems too Santa Clause-ish to me.
My mom's Pentecostal church claims that God speaks to them all the time. I used to watch them dance and shake and scream and sometimes they sounded like they were speaking Arabic which was them allegedly talking in tongues. Why can't I learn tongue language (not that I really want to, lol)? There is currently a woman who attends that church whose name is Rosita and they call her Rosita "La Profeta" which is Spanish for the "The Profit" because supposedly God talks to her and she finds out things when no one has even told her about it in the first place. And you all believe in this nonsense? Again, I am not trying to be rude here, but come on now! I think it's very insulting that I should be expected to be a fool. Sure, I had bad grades in school and I have A.D.D. and depression and my I.Q. is not as high as I would like it to be (it's average) but I also don't know why people have to expect me to be a fool. Then again, as mentioned before... it's all boiling down to faith. Faith... we invent. Logic... it's there to begin with and makes sense.
Scholar
#9
17th Feb 2008 at 10:39 PM
Last edited by Black_Barook! : 15th Feb 2011 at 1:22 AM.
Posts: 925
Thanks: 158 in 2 Posts
Offtopic: God talks to us in many ways. For example, I experienced that in the form of a university accepting my application. Another thing as Muslims we believe that God will ignore us if we do not remember Him. Remember Him in time of leisure and He will remember you in times of hardships.
Ontopic: That sounds similar to what Muslims believe and yet not at the same time! =D
Ontopic: That sounds similar to what Muslims believe and yet not at the same time! =D
Mad Poster
#10
17th Feb 2008 at 11:03 PM
Posts: 3,824
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Well, Christians, Muslims and Jews all believe in the same God. Just that Christians believe that Jesus is the Messiah and already came, Jews believe the same but that Jesus has yet to come, and Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet. I could be wrong but this is what I learned.
#11
17th Feb 2008 at 11:07 PM
Posts: 398
Thanks: 1166 in 16 Posts
Frankie, you ask why people believe in something when there is no proof, then you dismiss the given reason, which is faith. And you have to realize that faith is not an "invention" of mankind, it is a manifest of conscious thought; and it is not solely religious. Everyone believes things that are based on faith, not on fact. One of them being, that the universe even exists beyond our own consciousness. Personally I think that if that's even a possibility, if we can't prove that our world exists beyond our own thoughts, then we can't prove anything outside it. So to demand "proof" of something that relies on faith is sort of pointless.
I think you and many other agnostics and atheists really do not give enough credence to faith. If we should only rely on the rules of logic, then everyone would come to the conclusion that nothing is knowable, and how useful is that? It's better to assume something is true and be wrong than to assume nothing is true and be useless. That's why faith has value. And having faith in something doesn't make you a sheep/lemming, and it doesn't make you a fool. Being a sheep means not thinking independently, and that has not much to do with faith, but rather with laziness.
Anyway, now we're off-topic, so we should return to that.
I think you and many other agnostics and atheists really do not give enough credence to faith. If we should only rely on the rules of logic, then everyone would come to the conclusion that nothing is knowable, and how useful is that? It's better to assume something is true and be wrong than to assume nothing is true and be useless. That's why faith has value. And having faith in something doesn't make you a sheep/lemming, and it doesn't make you a fool. Being a sheep means not thinking independently, and that has not much to do with faith, but rather with laziness.
Anyway, now we're off-topic, so we should return to that.
Mad Poster
#12
17th Feb 2008 at 11:26 PM
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Well I still don't see any change even after your post. I don't see how I can ever believe that God talks to us and that Heaven awaits us. But I'll tell you, almost every night, I have a hard time sleeping. Instead of shutting down my brain to go to sleep, I find myself automatically thinking about afterlife and how scary it is. I am so afraid to lose everything I know. I fear afterlife and so my chest starts to tighten up and I start to feel nauseas. This has happened only at night while in bed trying to go to sleep. Almost every night, too! It sucks. What also sucks is that sometimes I'll call God and talk to Him in a "only-if-You-exist" fashion. Like, "God, IF you do exist... IF this... IF that..." etc. I admit that Heaven has always sounded like the best option in the sense that there would be no more suffering and drama, etc. I guess it will always be a mystery. At least you guys believe in something and are sure of it. I think that is still better than going through what I am going through. I'm not a typical Agnostic, I'm just more loft and confused and in pain, etc. That sucks more than anything because it's the reason why I can never get a good night's sleep. Sorry to be off topic, thuohg, this relates to Heaven in a way, so it is not completely off.
Inventor
#13
18th Feb 2008 at 12:29 AM
Posts: 952
Quote: Originally posted by frankie
Well I still don't see any change even after your post. I don't see how I can ever believe that God talks to us and that Heaven awaits us. But I'll tell you, almost every night, I have a hard time sleeping. Instead of shutting down my brain to go to sleep, I find myself automatically thinking about afterlife and how scary it is. I am so afraid to lose everything I know. I fear afterlife and so my chest starts to tighten up and I start to feel nauseas. This has happened only at night while in bed trying to go to sleep. Almost every night, too! It sucks. What also sucks is that sometimes I'll call God and talk to Him in a "only-if-You-exist" fashion. Like, "God, IF you do exist... IF this... IF that..." etc. I admit that Heaven has always sounded like the best option in the sense that there would be no more suffering and drama, etc. I guess it will always be a mystery. At least you guys believe in something and are sure of it. I think that is still better than going through what I am going through. I'm not a typical Agnostic, I'm just more loft and confused and in pain, etc. That sucks more than anything because it's the reason why I can never get a good night's sleep. Sorry to be off topic, thuohg, this relates to Heaven in a way, so it is not completely off. |
I study religions as a hobby and have been doing this for many years. I enjoy it because it help me to understand people in a way that I could never do just by having a conversation only. I just came across this sight, maybe it may help you understand that you are not alone, there are/were a lot of people with similar questions and concerns in/from every generation since the beginning/foundation of religions. http://www.deism.com/bibleorigins.htm
I just realized that Thomas Paine make more sense to me than Paul/Saul ever did. :doh
#14
18th Feb 2008 at 12:58 AM
Posts: 398
Thanks: 1166 in 16 Posts
Quote: Originally posted by frankie
Well I still don't see any change even after your post. I don't see how I can ever believe that God talks to us and that Heaven awaits us. But I'll tell you, almost every night, I have a hard time sleeping. Instead of shutting down my brain to go to sleep, I find myself automatically thinking about afterlife and how scary it is. I am so afraid to lose everything I know. I fear afterlife and so my chest starts to tighten up and I start to feel nauseas. This has happened only at night while in bed trying to go to sleep. Almost every night, too! It sucks. What also sucks is that sometimes I'll call God and talk to Him in a "only-if-You-exist" fashion. Like, "God, IF you do exist... IF this... IF that..." etc. I admit that Heaven has always sounded like the best option in the sense that there would be no more suffering and drama, etc. I guess it will always be a mystery. At least you guys believe in something and are sure of it. I think that is still better than going through what I am going through. I'm not a typical Agnostic, I'm just more loft and confused and in pain, etc. That sucks more than anything because it's the reason why I can never get a good night's sleep. Sorry to be off topic, thuohg, this relates to Heaven in a way, so it is not completely off. |
I was just trying to point out that faith is not as unimportant or as much of an obstacle as many seem to think I nor anyone else can convince you to place your faith in God, the Bible, or anything else that stands unproven or unproveable, no matter how good a proselytizer I am. Only you can do that. If you're feeling uncertain about things, you should definitely try exploring your options. Check out UrisStar's link, and look at other sites- one Christian site I really like that contains a lot of essays and articles by Christian writers is called Scriptorium Daily. Then, of course, there's ReligiousTolerance.org, which contains resources from myriad faiths. Ultimately, though, you're responsible for any personal decision you make regarding faith.
Field Researcher
#15
18th Feb 2008 at 1:16 AM
Posts: 223
Quote: Originally posted by frankie
Well I still don't see any change even after your post. I don't see how I can ever believe that God talks to us and that Heaven awaits us. But I'll tell you, almost every night, I have a hard time sleeping. Instead of shutting down my brain to go to sleep, I find myself automatically thinking about afterlife and how scary it is. I am so afraid to lose everything I know. I fear afterlife and so my chest starts to tighten up and I start to feel nauseas. This has happened only at night while in bed trying to go to sleep. Almost every night, too! It sucks. What also sucks is that sometimes I'll call God and talk to Him in a "only-if-You-exist" fashion. Like, "God, IF you do exist... IF this... IF that..." etc. I admit that Heaven has always sounded like the best option in the sense that there would be no more suffering and drama, etc. I guess it will always be a mystery. At least you guys believe in something and are sure of it. I think that is still better than going through what I am going through. I'm not a typical Agnostic, I'm just more loft and confused and in pain, etc. That sucks more than anything because it's the reason why I can never get a good night's sleep. Sorry to be off topic, thuohg, this relates to Heaven in a way, so it is not completely off. |
My belief: Do right by your fellow man. Do what you think is right and good and just. Or don't. Your call. Everyone (religious and otherwise) is at best an agnostic. If our "immortality" is to rot in the ground or to be in an afterlife, or to come back in a different cast, we all share the same fate. Best not to wonder if you will go to heaven or hell or be reborn as a priest or an outcast or just rot. If one spends their life worrying about their death, then you have nothing to live for. But if you treat everyday as a preasious gift, and share that gift with the world, in my book, your an okay guy. I don't believe in a name for God. I find it pointless. My name is Shane. Many people mistake that for the more common Sean (or Shawn, both of which share the same meaning as Shane). I find it easy to forgive them. It's simple. I just inform them of their error, and accept their apology. I refuse to believe that God can't do the same to the person who calls him Shiva. That implies that, in some mannor, I am better then God. And that can't be true. Don't worry about the name you call "him", worry about the good you do. Heaven in my mind is a pass or fail choice.
Mad Poster
#16
18th Feb 2008 at 4:26 AM
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Yes, I read the link that UrisStar posted and it made a lot of sense and I am not surprised about it because that was similar to how I would have believed in the Bible if I did. If I were to be a Christian, it would be the kind who would like to do research and not just believe in this or that because God said so. That to me is just pathetic and makes you a minion. But seeing as how I don't think I ever will be a Christian, I am not going to worry about that. I have some gothicism in me and I'm just very "dark" in general, so I know that that is something that most Christians will not accept. I just have so many things going on that Christians would not accept in general. At least I feel that way.
#17
18th Feb 2008 at 5:48 AM
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I think you'd be surprised how kind most Christians are... I think in the "Christians" who get the most attention are the ones like Westboro Baptist Church and other really loudmouthed, politically-driven groups of close-minded people who couldn't have an intelligent discussion with you to save their life. It's pretty sad that they have come to be seen as representational of Christianity in general. But hasn't it always been that way, with most groups? The nice ones aren't entertaining, so they don't get featured by the media. But I have never actually known a Christian who I knew to be anti-goth or anything like that, in fact some of the most admired individuals at my current church are a group of bikers who wear the leather clothes, long hair, tattoos, the works, but nobody looks down on them for their appearance, because they are some of the most active members of the church and they're incredibly nice people. Anyway, my point is you can't really know until you try. Being raised around Charismatics will really leave you with a bad taste in your mouth, but there's more out there.
Mad Poster
#18
18th Feb 2008 at 6:03 AM
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I understand what you mean and I know and always have known that not all Christians are that fundamental. Actually I used to go to a gay church called MCC and was the best church I ever attended. Just that everyone there was so preppy and suburban that I just didn't feel like I fit in, even though they truly did welcome me with open arms... actually it seems like it is common for Christian GLBT to kiss each other as a friendly gesture... much like the "friendly kiss" interaction in The Sims 2. But I only stopped going at the time because it was not very close to me in distance without a car and I was using my dad's to go there every Sunday until it broke down for a few months and then I just kept forgetting to go when I did have the chance. Then I lost interest. And mind you, I even did the Holy Communion and everything (bread thingy with grape juice?) and loved it at the time. I remember feeling (or pretending) as if it were a piece of God entering me. Of course now that I look back I just think I was a fool for even thinking that I could be that... Christian, lol. Now I'm just more confused and it sucks for me because I'm like bait for typical fundies. They love challenges and I know they would love to feed me with their "truth." I think that's what scares me because you never know really who is like that anymore... nowadays they have gotten a lot smarter. Did you know they now send people to pretend to be gay just as a lure to confusing you more about your sexuality? I have met them online and they are spreading. These people are just thinking of every way possible to lure you and let me tell you these people are very patient! Very much so! If it takes forever to convert you, they will wait that forever amount of time! Now it's to where you could meet one of them and almost not even know it.
Regardless, I still do admire sites like www.ChristianGays.com with so many resources on GLBT Christians. That is where I got these two articles from was this site. But again... I'm afraid and vulnerable and because of that I am an easy target.
Actually there is a Gothic Christian site that I found, too, that I admire, but they are such a tiny percentage. They believe that you can be both goth and Christian. And I'm not only talking the way goths normally dress, but the mentality and viewpoints of goths. And I'm excluding the posers because they think they know everything and that they are the true goths and all that bull. Those I can't stand at all. They actually reject everyone who is not like them. Why do I need to go back to high school? Ugh.
EDIT: Oh, and it's just like certain gays that make us look bad, like Chris Crocker. So I am not only picking on Christians just so you all know. I don't support bath houses but I don't preach against them but there are just those gays that make us look bad, just like in every other group. And I'm Latino and can admit that there are Latinos that make us look bad. So it's like that with Christianity which I know it sucks.
Regardless, I still do admire sites like www.ChristianGays.com with so many resources on GLBT Christians. That is where I got these two articles from was this site. But again... I'm afraid and vulnerable and because of that I am an easy target.
Actually there is a Gothic Christian site that I found, too, that I admire, but they are such a tiny percentage. They believe that you can be both goth and Christian. And I'm not only talking the way goths normally dress, but the mentality and viewpoints of goths. And I'm excluding the posers because they think they know everything and that they are the true goths and all that bull. Those I can't stand at all. They actually reject everyone who is not like them. Why do I need to go back to high school? Ugh.
EDIT: Oh, and it's just like certain gays that make us look bad, like Chris Crocker. So I am not only picking on Christians just so you all know. I don't support bath houses but I don't preach against them but there are just those gays that make us look bad, just like in every other group. And I'm Latino and can admit that there are Latinos that make us look bad. So it's like that with Christianity which I know it sucks.
#19
18th Feb 2008 at 6:54 AM
Posts: 231
Quote: Originally posted by endersgirl07
I think you'd be surprised how kind most Christians are... I think in the "Christians" who get the most attention are the ones like Westboro Baptist Church and other really loudmouthed, politically-driven groups of close-minded people who couldn't have an intelligent discussion with you to save their life. It's pretty sad that they have come to be seen as representational of Christianity in general. But hasn't it always been that way, with most groups? The nice ones aren't entertaining, so they don't get featured by the media. But I have never actually known a Christian who I knew to be anti-goth or anything like that, in fact some of the most admired individuals at my current church are a group of bikers who wear the leather clothes, long hair, tattoos, the works, but nobody looks down on them for their appearance, because they are some of the most active members of the church and they're incredibly nice people. Anyway, my point is you can't really know until you try. Being raised around Charismatics will really leave you with a bad taste in your mouth, but there's more out there. |
You raise a valid point, and judging any group by the actions of a few leads to hasty generalizations which really isn't fair for anybody. At the same token though, many Christians hold a faith that theirs is the one and only true way to a better afterlife, whereas other faiths and ideas that don't agree are condemned to a less fortunate fate. That itself wouldn't be so bad, except that people have suffered some pretty horrific consequences because they questioned the church.
In all fairness though, Christianity isn't the only religion that is guilty in this regard.
It also begs the question as to who is correct... both the Catholics and the Jehovah's Witnesses for example consider visiting another church or participating in a ceremony (such as a wedding) outside of their group to be a mortal sin. This goes beyond simply the acceptance of Jesus as the savior of mankind, and makes an obvious implication that either of these groups, and these groups alone hold the only path to God. How can one say with authority that either of these denominations are correct, or conversely blowing a lot of smoke?
Field Researcher
#20
18th Feb 2008 at 7:06 AM
Posts: 223
Um, I am Catholic. I've gone to a Catholic school my entire life. I took 13 years of religious courses. Never in thos 13 years has any of my teachers told me that going to another Christian mass was a mortal sin. In fact, a few actually encouraged it so that people would A.) experience other faiths, and 2.) find a form of worship that was right for them. They never made the asertion that they were right. In fact, one teacher was less of a Catholic and more of an Agnostic. I take a great deal of offense to the assertion that the modern Catholic church is intolorent to its fellow Christians, or even other religions. That simply is not what I as a Catholic believe.
Edit:
The notion that participating in an outside wedding is a mortal sin is even more ludicris. My family is a family of converts. My father converted to Catholicism and was very devout in his faith. He still attended his Protestant sister's wedding. If I were you, I'd brush up on what different sects believe before you make a statement like that again.
Edit:
The notion that participating in an outside wedding is a mortal sin is even more ludicris. My family is a family of converts. My father converted to Catholicism and was very devout in his faith. He still attended his Protestant sister's wedding. If I were you, I'd brush up on what different sects believe before you make a statement like that again.
#21
18th Feb 2008 at 8:04 AM
Posts: 231
Quote: Originally posted by hszmv
Um, I am Catholic. I've gone to a Catholic school my entire life. I took 13 years of religious courses. Never in thos 13 years has any of my teachers told me that going to another Christian mass was a mortal sin. In fact, a few actually encouraged it so that people would A.) experience other faiths, and 2.) find a form of worship that was right for them. They never made the asertion that they were right. In fact, one teacher was less of a Catholic and more of an Agnostic. I take a great deal of offense to the assertion that the modern Catholic church is intolorent to its fellow Christians, or even other religions. That simply is not what I as a Catholic believe. Edit: The notion that participating in an outside wedding is a mortal sin is even more ludicris. My family is a family of converts. My father converted to Catholicism and was very devout in his faith. He still attended his Protestant sister's wedding. If I were you, I'd brush up on what different sects believe before you make a statement like that again. |
This is out of the Catholic Encyclopedia... the horse's mouth you might say.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm
Quote:
Communicatio in sacris, i.e. active participation in non-Catholic religious functions, is on the whole unlawful, but it is not so intrinsically evil that, under given circumstances, it may not be excused. Thus friends and relatives may for good reasons accompany a funeral, be present at a marriage or a baptism, without causing scandal or lending support, to the non-Catholic rites, provided no active part be taken in them: their motive is friendship, or maybe courtesy, but it nowise implies approval of therites. |
According to that page, it considers active participation in non-Catholic functions to be a form of heresy. Seems pretty clear to me...
Also, you might want to read this portion at the end of the article:
Quote:
The Church's legislation on heresy and heretics is often reproached with cruelty and intolerance. Intolerant it is: in fact its raison d'être is intolerance of doctrines subversive of the faith. But such intolerance is essential to all that is, or moves, or lives, for tolerance of destructive elements within the organism amounts to suicide. Heretical sects are subject to the same law: they live or die in the measure they apply or neglect it. The charge of cruelty is also easy to meet. All repressive measures cause suffering or inconvenience of some sort: it is their nature. But they are not therefore cruel. The father who chastises his guilty son is just and may be tender-hearted. Cruelty only comes in where the punishment exceeds the requirements of the case. Opponents say: Precisely; the rigours of the Inquisition violated all humane feelings. We answer: they offend the feelings of later ages in which there is less regard for the purity of faith; but they did not antagonize the feelings of their own time, when heresy was looked on as more malignant than treason. |
#22
18th Feb 2008 at 8:20 AM
Posts: 145
Thanks: 5116 in 48 Posts
He died for you so you could have eternal life. Don't throw it away.
Hugs and I will be praying for you ^_^
Hugs and I will be praying for you ^_^
Field Researcher
#23
18th Feb 2008 at 8:28 AM
Posts: 223
Of course, though, that differs from the (again Modern) Vatican stance (which has since apolagized for such bloody acts as the Inquisition.). Considering that Pope John Paul II himself has held countless services in places of Non-Catholic worship, and conversly has attended Non-Catholic religious ceremonies, I think it would be safe to assume that that law is a little outdated (not to mention the fact that it does not define what a herasy is or list who put out the site. It only names a Kevin Knight, who could be just about any one. The sight also seems paid for from an outside source. If it was an official sight, google adds wouldn't be there.).
Again, having grown up with the culture, in the oldest Catholic community in the US and never hearing of this law, I have to doubt the validaty or the significance in the modern world. Sorry, but I know plenty of good Catholics (some of who I would be damned if they didn't know of this law) who have attended Non-Catholic cermonies, including priests and nuns.
Again, having grown up with the culture, in the oldest Catholic community in the US and never hearing of this law, I have to doubt the validaty or the significance in the modern world. Sorry, but I know plenty of good Catholics (some of who I would be damned if they didn't know of this law) who have attended Non-Catholic cermonies, including priests and nuns.
Inventor
#24
18th Feb 2008 at 9:21 AM
Posts: 952
Quote: Originally posted by hszmv
Of course, though, that differs from the (again Modern) Vatican stance (which has since apolagized for such bloody acts as the Inquisition.). Considering that Pope John Paul II himself has held countless services in places of Non-Catholic worship, and conversly has attended Non-Catholic religious ceremonies, I think it would be safe to assume that that law is a little outdated (not to mention the fact that it does not define what a herasy is or list who put out the site. It only names a Kevin Knight, who could be just about any one. The sight also seems paid for from an outside source. If it was an official sight, google adds wouldn't be there.). Again, having grown up with the culture, in the oldest Catholic community in the US and never hearing of this law, I have to doubt the validaty or the significance in the modern world. Sorry, but I know plenty of good Catholics (some of who I would be damned if they didn't know of this law) who have attended Non-Catholic cermonies, including priests and nuns. |
A couple of years ago there was a big debate on this board and catholics where coming from everywhere to weight in. It came off more like a gang up wall of intimidation and was not pretty to say the lest. Before this I had not come in direct contact on a personal level with catholics and had never given it a second thought on what they believed or did not believe. It was an eye opener and I must say rather educational, at lest it was for me.
You must know that even catholics are different within the group/from church to church it seems, I don‘t understand the reason (s) behind this, but why would you take offense when you are not every catholic?
The church has reinvented itself and as modern as you would like it to be, it will never be able to detach itself from its history nor should it try to do so, as it will only promote more distrust/dishonesty.
#25
18th Feb 2008 at 9:51 AM
Posts: 231
Quote: Originally posted by hszmv
Of course, though, that differs from the (again Modern) Vatican stance (which has since apolagized for such bloody acts as the Inquisition.). Considering that Pope John Paul II himself has held countless services in places of Non-Catholic worship, and conversly has attended Non-Catholic religious ceremonies, I think it would be safe to assume that that law is a little outdated (not to mention the fact that it does not define what a herasy is or list who put out the site. It only names a Kevin Knight, who could be just about any one. The sight also seems paid for from an outside source. If it was an official sight, google adds wouldn't be there.). Again, having grown up with the culture, in the oldest Catholic community in the US and never hearing of this law, I have to doubt the validaty or the significance in the modern world. Sorry, but I know plenty of good Catholics (some of who I would be damned if they didn't know of this law) who have attended Non-Catholic cermonies, including priests and nuns. |
Well, the site goes into the history and details... it indicates that is the transcription of the 1913 version of the Catholic Encyclopedia. They site the reason for that version is A: It is the most recent version in the public domain, and B: He claims that it is "thought by many to be the superior version.". Is there a reason to think that it isn't a valid transcription?
I don't know if www.catholic.org is an official site, although I would presume it is... however, it too features google ads. Not an uncommon practice for websites to do so nowadays to help offset expenses.
Not sure what you mean by "it does not define what a herasy is".
As far as the law being outdated, apparently not everyone agrees on that point. This is what I was able to find with a quick search.
http://www.cmri.org/97prog4.htm
http://www.traditioninaction.org/Re...catioSacris.htm
http://www.lulu.com/content/1431544
http://www.traditionalmass.org/imag..._QA_RevPDF2.pdf
Otherwise, I think I'm going to defer to UrisStar for the rest! :D
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