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Scholar
Original Poster
#1 Old 27th Aug 2014 at 2:41 AM
Default Michael Brown, Trayvon Martin, and Black Men In America
So this topic has been getting a lot of press lately and I was wondering what y'all think about it. There are articles like this and then you have articles like this and it's hard to know which side is right, which is the most logical stance to take, etc. Personally, I don't have a strong opinion on the topic because I'm pretty confused about it. Not that I'm looking to everyone here to give me an opinion, I'm just saying. It's hard to know how bad it really is, how often this really happens (apart from the big news stories), and what anyone can really do about it. I think we all can agree that Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin should still be alive and that what happened to them was horrible. But the facts get confusing when you're talking about these two people versus all Black men, and when the discussion opens up further to the racial dynamics in America (which, I think most people will agree that minorities are at a definite disadvantage - I know this is true from people I've talked with who are minorities). So I guess I was wondering what you guys think--are these tragic yet isolated incidents, or do they point to a bigger problem? And does the issue lie more with police abusing their power, gun control, or racial dynamics? How does this look to someone who's not from the US?

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Top Secret Researcher
#2 Old 27th Aug 2014 at 3:18 AM
Tragic and not isolated, would be my take on it. The reason I say "not isolated" is that incidents of that kind that stop short of being fatal happen a lot, and don't make the news. If individual cops feel that they're being portrayed unfairly, it's partly because they are not doing something so different from the usual, until & except for the part about someone dying.

As to Mr. Brown's case -- I can't connect it with gun control, because the only guy armed was the cop, and there's wide agreement that cops should be armed.
Field Researcher
#3 Old 27th Aug 2014 at 4:42 AM
It's absolutely not an isolated incident. Michael Brown & Trayvon Martin & Ezra Ford (or Ezrell, I get his name mixed up) & Reynisha McBride & Eric Garner & Denise Stewart & Rosan Miller & John Crawford are only a few of the names that have captured the public's attention but they're only a few drops in a much larger bucket.

Of course they point to a bigger picture - the value of black life in America. In 2012, FBI data shows that even though black men only make up 13℅ of the population, 32% of felons (felons in the sense of those in conflict with the police) shot (& killed) are black. Living in the community, it can definitely feel like much more.

No matter what people try & make the situation out to be, it is first & foremost about race. Yes, police brutality is part of the equation. So is gun control. But black and brown people are being mowed down by police in numbers disproportionate to our very existence.

The problem is that the United States has decided that black lives are human lives but we have yet to determine if they're worth respecting or honoring as human lives for which the sanctity and safety is to be upheld. It's historical, of course (nothing is ahistorical).

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Instructor
#4 Old 27th Aug 2014 at 5:02 AM
My only comment at the moment is that I wish people would stop referring to the "militarization" of police. It's not militarization. The United States military is far more responsible than what those cops in Missouri are doing. This isn't an issue of militarization. It's an issue of incompetence. Namely, police officers essentially cosplaying Seal Team Six. Except instead of fighting Al Qaeda, they see the peaceful civilian population of Ferguson, Missouri as "the enemy".
Scholar
Original Poster
#5 Old 28th Aug 2014 at 1:21 AM
Quote: Originally posted by NaeShelle
It's absolutely not an isolated incident. Michael Brown & Trayvon Martin & Ezra Ford (or Ezrell, I get his name mixed up) & Reynisha McBride & Eric Garner & Denise Stewart & Rosan Miller & John Crawford are only a few of the names that have captured the public's attention but they're only a few drops in a much larger bucket.

Of course they point to a bigger picture - the value of black life in America. In 2012, FBI data shows that even though black men only make up 13℅ of the population, 32% of felons (felons in the sense of those in conflict with the police) shot (& killed) are black. Living in the community, it can definitely feel like much more.

No matter what people try & make the situation out to be, it is first & foremost about race. Yes, police brutality is part of the equation. So is gun control. But black and brown people are being mowed down by police in numbers disproportionate to our very existence.

The problem is that the United States has decided that black lives are human lives but we have yet to determine if they're worth respecting or honoring as human lives for which the sanctity and safety is to be upheld. It's historical, of course (nothing is ahistorical).


I see what you're saying. I think it's hard for me to understand completely because I'm a white woman who isn't racist and who tends to value all lives the same, regardless of race. Therefore, I don't understand how someone could think that way, and in addition, I don't deal with the prejudice that Black Americans do on a daily basis. I'm not really sure what can be done though, except empathizing and thinking about how awful it is, which doesn't really help anyone I guess.

“Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.”
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Theorist
#6 Old 28th Aug 2014 at 4:46 AM
Quote: Originally posted by GabyBee
My only comment at the moment is that I wish people would stop referring to the "militarization" of police. It's not militarization. The United States military is far more responsible than what those cops in Missouri are doing. This isn't an issue of militarization. It's an issue of incompetence. Namely, police officers essentially cosplaying Seal Team Six. Except instead of fighting Al Qaeda, they see the peaceful civilian population of Ferguson, Missouri as "the enemy".

Except it is militarization, because "well, our real soldiers are more soldier-y" isn't a magical handwave that changes people in combat body armor, driving armored personnel carriers, using military weapons, into "not militarized." Professionalism and effectiveness is nice in a military, but it's not the chief indicator on "what's military." There are all sorts of national militaries in the world that are unprofessional, ineffective, barely outfitted gangs that could probably be sacked now in a head-on conflict with some of our small town SWAT teams thanks to our police being outfitted with military surplus.

BUT, as an implicit point, I agree that the problem isn't really the military equipment. It's the military "us vs. the enemy" attitude that goes with it, the lack of training with the usage of the weapons in the proper and most effective manner. Our soldiers understand that having a weapon doesn't get the job done, that it's how you apply force and when that achieves your objectives. Cops? Not so much.
Mad Poster
#7 Old 10th Sep 2014 at 4:26 AM
Regarding police militarization (which I think is a separate issue from police targeting black men), here are some articles I bookmarked that someone might find interesting -

Why Did You Shoot Me? I Was Reading a Book: The New Warrior Cop Is Out of Control
Quote:
It can also be difficult to trace an IP address to a physical address, which can lead to yet more mistaken raids. An example of that problem manifested in one of the more bizarre botched raids in recent years. It took place in September 2006, when a SWAT team from the Bedford County sheriff’s department stormed the rural Virginia home of A. J. Nuckols, his wife, and their two children. Police had traced the IP address of someone trading child porn online to the Nuckols’ physical address. They had made a mistake. As if the shock of having his house invaded by a SWAT team wasn’t enough, Nuckols was in for another surprise. In a letter to the editor of the Chatham Star Review, he described the raid: “Men ran at me, dropped into shooting position, double-handed semi-automatic pistols pointed at me, and made me put my hands against my truck. I was held at gunpoint, searched, taunted, and led into the house. I had no idea what this was about. I was scared beyond description.”
He then looked up, and saw . . . former NBA star Shaquille O’Neal.
O’Neal, an aspiring lawman, had been made an “honorary deputy” with the department. Though he had no training as a SWAT officer, Shaq apparently had gone on several such raids with other police departments around the country. The thrill of bringing an untrained celebrity along apparently trumped the requirement that SWAT teams be staffed only with the most elite, most highly qualified and best-trained cops. According to Nuckols, O’Neal reached into Nuckols’s pickup, snatched up his (perfectly legal) rifle, and exclaimed, “We’ve got a gun!” O’Neal told Time that Nuckols’s description of the raid on his home was exaggerated. “It ain’t no story,” he said. “We did everything right, went to the judge, got a warrant. You know, they make it seem like we beat him up, and that never happened. We went in, talked to him, took some stuff, returned it—bada bam, bada bing.”


More Americans Killed By Police Than By Terrorists
Scholar
#8 Old 19th Sep 2014 at 4:06 AM
Looting and fucking shit up is not justified by 'injustice'.

"It's said war - war never changes. Men do, through the roads they walk. And this road - has reached its end" - Ulysses, Fallout New Vegas
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Theorist
#9 Old 19th Sep 2014 at 5:43 AM
Quote: Originally posted by ChinchillaJesus
Looting and fucking shit up is not justified by 'injustice'.

Apparently you think it would be okay for them to hunt the officer in question down and murder him though?
Scholar
#10 Old 19th Sep 2014 at 6:04 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Mistermook
Apparently you think it would be okay for them to hunt the officer in question down and murder him though?

No, Michael Brown robbed a store, assaulted the owner, and was resisting arrest. The cop had the right to open fire.

"It's said war - war never changes. Men do, through the roads they walk. And this road - has reached its end" - Ulysses, Fallout New Vegas
If you love Fallout and literacy, you'll ABSOLUTELY love my roleplay group. https://www.facebook.com/groups/127063690973781/
Field Researcher
#11 Old 19th Sep 2014 at 9:57 AM
Quote: Originally posted by ChinchillaJesus
Looting and fucking shit up is not justified by 'injustice'.


The vast majority of the looting & public stupidity done that first night were by people mostly unaffiliated with the protesters that came through later. In fact, there are pictures of protestors banding together & shouting "For Mike; Hands up, don't shoot!" at those who tried to cause more disruption because that's not what they were there for.

It was also done out of anger, by some members of a community that was hurting. How many Mike Brown's are there in America? There are so many similar cases you just don't hear about - look at how many have grabbed media attention since his. I'm not saying it's right but you're judging a community that's entirely fucking tired of not being heard, for making sure they were heard. Right or wrong, they were making damn sure you wouldn't ignore them.

Also, about your theft statement, that's not as reason to gun an unarmed teenager down. In fact, they didn't even STOP him because they thought he was a part of a store robbery - FPD stated that officer Darren Wilson stopped him because he was in the street. (And anyway, evidence of a crime isn't even admissible in court to prove a person's character.) His alleged robbery is irrevelant. Wrong & something he should have been punished for? Yes. But he couldn't be, because shooting him that many damn times was nowhere near due justice.

(Also - "the cop had the right to open fire"? Give me a break. There are a couple of other things he could have done, namely tazing him, before he opened fire. It is never necessary to gun someone down before all other alternatives are reached.)

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Theorist
#12 Old 19th Sep 2014 at 3:56 PM Last edited by Mistermook : 19th Sep 2014 at 5:03 PM.
Quote: Originally posted by ChinchillaJesus
No, Michael Brown robbed a store, assaulted the owner, and was resisting arrest. The cop had the right to open fire.


That's in serious dispute. But in any case, I hope that you're never accused of a crime where the responding officer decides that to "arrest" you it requires six shots from his firearm, including at least one outside of the torso into your brain.
Theorist
#13 Old 24th Sep 2014 at 3:27 PM Last edited by Shoosh Malooka : 25th Sep 2014 at 9:51 PM.
Quote: Originally posted by efolger997
So I guess I was wondering what you guys think--are these tragic yet isolated incidents, or do they point to a bigger problem?

It shows a bigger problem. Missouri is one of many states that have something similar to their Missouri Defense of Justification Statute. All Darren Wilson needs to say are the magic words: "I reasonably believed he was a threat to my life and to others." There is NO DEFINITION for what "reasonably believes" means. Legal practice is to take the officer's word. With no written code or rules to define "reasonably believes," they could be overly ready for anything, like that Ross Elder person you linked to, and respond with lethal force on a whim. Is Ross Elder the one in those pictures pointing the gun toward the camera? Combine this convenient, legal protection with racism in an area that is known for it, lack of really really good evidence, and it's Ferguson and it can happen again. Anything that can go wrong will go wrong.

Someone else's post
Quote:
Looting and fucking shit up is not justified by 'injustice'.

I hope you're not trying to conflate the few troublemakers with the protesters so that you can come up with "Ferguson riots."

Edit:
Check out this cowboy cop creating his own opportunity for "reasonably believed" threat. He pulls up and asks "Can I see your license, please?" and as the guy goes to get his wallet in his car the trooper immediately opened fire on him. I mean who knows, he might have been reaching for an anti-police batmissilelauncher, right cowboy? The guy survived and the trooper was charged because his own dashcam got it on video. If not for that, there might not even be any charge or any news of this.
http://www.thestate.com/2014/09/24/...p=/99/205/&rh=1
Lab Assistant
#14 Old 3rd Oct 2014 at 10:47 PM
Quote: Originally posted by ChinchillaJesus
No, Michael Brown robbed a store, assaulted the owner, and was resisting arrest. The cop had the right to open fire.

But you did forget a couple of things Michael Brown beat the cop till he almost passed out and Brown charged at the officer.
Lab Assistant
#15 Old 22nd Oct 2014 at 5:46 PM Last edited by AzemOcram : 23rd Oct 2014 at 12:24 PM.
Trayvon Martin was innocent and Zimmerman should have been charged with Manslaughter. Michael Brown attacked the police officer who shot him. The police officer ended up in a hospital with rather bad injuries including a damaged cornea. Michael Brown was shot at close range by a man who was rendered blind in one eye (he will most likely regain his sight after sufficient treatment). The hard evidence keeps on contradicting the story that Michael Brown's friend gave, which parts of the media turned into a frenzy to get the population angry. As the evidence keeps coming in, it seems like officer Wilson gave an accurate report.

I try to learn the whole story before I form an opinion and the two stories are very different. Trayvon Martin was innocent but Michael Brown was not. I highly doubt that much punishment will be exacted on Officer Wilson because he didn't do anything illegal.

Always do your best.
Theorist
#16 Old 23rd Oct 2014 at 7:02 AM Last edited by Shoosh Malooka : 23rd Oct 2014 at 1:50 PM.
Quote: Originally posted by AzemOcram
Trayvon Martin was innocent and Zimmerman should have been charged with Manslaughter. Michael Brown attacked the police officer who shot him. The police officer ended up in a hospital with rather bad injuries including a damaged cornea. Michael Brown was shot at close range by a man who was rendered blind in one eye (he will most likely regain his sight after sufficient treatment). The hard evidence keeps on contradicting the story that Michael Brown's friend gave, which parts of the media turned into a frenzy to get the population angry. As the evidence keeps coming in, it seems like officer Johnson gave an accurate report.

I try to learn the whole story before I form an opinion and the two stories are very different. Trayvon Martin was innocent but Michael Brown was not. I highly doubt that much punishment will be exacted on Officer Johnson because he didn't do anything illegal.


You mean officer Darren Wilson. There is no "officer Johnson" in connection with Michael Brown.

Dorian Johnson is the friend who was with Michael Brown, and who gave an account of what happened. And speaking of intent to frenzy the media, let's not forget the police releasing surveillance of Michael Brown stealing cigars to paint him as a thug, but also to take a swipe at black people in general. Let's not forget that tough guy officer who was seen on CNN cameras and who pointed a gun at another witness camera saying "I'll fuckin kill you." What, you're going to shoot the audience through the camera? These Ferguson policemen have been popping their collars too long with the amount of freedom and the equipment they have been given.
Quote: Originally posted by ChinchillaJesus
No, Michael Brown robbed a store, assaulted the owner, and was resisting arrest. The cop had the right to open fire.

If Darren Wilson is indicted by the grand jury he has to provide justification for each and every bullet, including the two in the head. There is already strong forensic and video evidence that Michael Brown had already surrendered and had his hands up before he was killed. Your position is that cops should be able to kill whoever they want because the victim deserved it. You are in favor of cops being the judge and jury. Too bad a federal investigation will happen irl when that happens. Go rent Judge Dredd for your cop fantasies.
Quote: Originally posted by Rojan
But you did forget a couple of things Michael Brown beat the cop till he almost passed out and Brown charged at the officer.

I understand the struggle in the car, but there is strong indication that Michael Brown, if he charged, had stopped his charge and then was killed while he had his hands up. Twenty feet from the car and already surrendered, what's the defense of justification for multiple shots fired? Where's the reasonably believed threat? Officer Wilson likely shot him out of hatred.

Anyway, I am in favor of the grand jury indicting Darren Wilson. Not that it's likely to happen, given that there are only three normal people and nine sketchies in the grand jury. If no indictment is reached, outrage should grow. Should, as in we should be pissed and have a right to be pissed if the federal investigations can prove that Ferguson law enforcement has been playing a selective agenda for however long, and they've already shown themselves to behave like entitled jackasses during the protests.
Test Subject
#17 Old 24th Oct 2014 at 7:08 AM
Quote: Originally posted by efolger997
I'm not really sure what can be done though, except empathizing and thinking about how awful it is, which doesn't really help anyone I guess.


You can do plenty, don't underestimate yourself. a good start would be to speak up when you see black people being discriminated against and to try and stay educated about the kinds of violence and discrimination they go through for being black. listen, ask questions, and speak up when you see it. if most people did that without trying to talk over them i think the african american community would be a lot better off, i can't speak for anyone outside the US but i'd hope that black people in other countries would be positively affected by it too.


my opinion on cases of police brutality and vigilante violence towards black people especially is very personal. i used to live in an area with high police activity. my family still lives in an area of high police activity none of them feel like the police are around to make them feel safe. Michael Brown could have been my father or my brother or any of my cousins or me even and we've all just kind of quietly accepted that if any of were murders or assulted no one would care. or if someone did care someone else would dig up whatever mistakes we'd have made in the past a a reason to not care no matter what kind of person we are now. this kind of stuff has been happening for a long time (from the Rodney King beating in '91 to the Oscar Grant shooting in '09 to Trayvon Martin in 2012 and Vonderitt Myers exactly a month after Michael Brown) and i'm very glad people have picked up where the civil rights movement left off and started talking about the fact that black men and women are more likely to be attacked by the police than white people even to the point where much of the black community have admitted to a feeling of fear or disomfort around the police. i'm glad people are speaking up and protesting. five barely investigated African American murders in the course of a month is too much and i can hope that enough people speak and act to the point where something changes.


from where i stand this entire situation is about race. from an officer trying to aprehend black youth with at least 6 bullets (something that would not have happened to a white teen even in the worst of ghettos or crime ridden areas in poor communities), to how even after he was dead people were trying to excuse his shooting by painting him as someone who's life is not worth mourning (something else that wouldn't have happened had it been a white teen. even the columbine shooters were written as "loners" to be cared about while Michael has time and time again been written up as being "no angel" or being categorized as a thug) speaking as someone that used to make a habit of demonizing black people i'm sure this whole scenario could have been avoided if racism wasn't so easily brushed under the rug in the US

i'm not sure if my thoughts are all over the place here once again this is a very personal subject for me
Lab Assistant
#18 Old 27th Dec 2014 at 3:51 AM
What police "should" do and what they have a "right to do" are two different things...and sometimes rules or no rules that is where racism comes in effect. For example a racist cop may shoot first and ask questions later because he doesn't "see" that person as a "person" or a being of value, but take the same situation and that person was white - the racist cop would "see" that person as a "person" and may let him off or not "shoot first" being that the situations were the same - even if by law the cop had a "right to shoot" it still clearly should be looked at as an act racism, however we would never know this about him unless there were past histories with this police officer as proof of being a racist and of cases where he "let whites go" Unfortunately there are far too many cases even with proven histories of racism where the cop has been let off because his actions were "within the boundaries of the law" to do so. So the real question is not whether or not it is lawful - but whether or not it is morally right.
 
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