I find it sad that this is something people argue about every year. But at the same time, I find it incredibly funny.

The modern notions of Christmas have only existed since around the time of the U.S. Civil War, about 140 years.

It is historical fact that many of the symbols we have come to associate with Christmas were taken from non-christian traditions that pre-date the birth of Christ. Specifically, symbols such as decorated trees, mistletoe, holly wreaths, yule logs and Santa Claus all have non-Christian origins. Therefore, replaceing the term "Christmas" with the term "Holiday" is more accurate for those who celebrate the secular aspects of this holiday. After all, these secular celebrations have been in existence for thousands of years vs. the relatively new emergence of our modern notions of Christmas. From a historical context, "Christmas" only recently adopted these long-standing winter traditions into its own identity. Therefore, many non-christians argue that the more accurate, and more inclusive description of this season is the "holiday" season, not the "Christmas" season (a label which only describes the religious celebration of Christ's birth, and connotates an exclusive identity to the time of year.)

BTW: An early "Happy Josh's Day" to you all too.

Great explanation. It makes sense. Now I know where my Pentecostal fanatic aunt got her belief that the Christmas tree is evil: the lights are the devil's eyes and the garland is the serpent. LOL

Odd is relative. I say Joyous Solstice, and Merry Equinox on the appropriate days, and Season's Greetings, the rest of the time.
I also say Merry Christmas and Happy Birthday when giving gifts, regardless of time of year or time of birthday.
Season's Greetings is no stranger than any of the other ones, and Merry Christmas is not something that normal people say on a nice spring morning.

Also, the secular Christmas holiday celbrated in America nowadays came from a Jewish storekeeper wanting more business in December, and then Co-Cola invented Santa Claus. This began in the 1920s.

WHAT? Sorry, but christmas is a tradition and I know people that aren't religous or catholic that celebrate christmas. It's a lovely tradition. It's not like catholics/christians/people who celebrate Christmas go off about what other religions celebrate and do.
I'd just like to say, Santa is known for saying "Ho Ho Ho" well, now in some parts of the world, Santas in Shops and other places aren't aloud to say it, because of the other meaning. Thats ridiculous. People these days are to overprotective and go off at the drop off a hat!

I just wish I had a different name for the same holiday, really. I'm always going to celebrate Christmas, despite being an "atheist". It's a tradition for me and my family and it's not about God to me. To me Christmas is about giving to people who don't usually get to receive and spending time with your family and wearing matching sweaters with your little sister even though you both hate it and warm, rich colors and turkey soup and ham and decorating the tree. Now that I think on it, Christ has never really been in this holiday for me.

That being said, I always use 'Happy Holidays' because I know how I fume whenever someone makes an assumption about my religion.

I prefer "Happy Holidays" as well, but "Merry Christmas" seems to be a bad habit, lol.

As for Santa, not to be rude or anything, but I think it's so selfish to make your kids believe in Santa to then confess to them later on that it was all a big lie. Don't you people even care to realize how heart-broken and betrayed some of these kids feel? Thank God my parents never bothered with making us believe in Santa. It's the equivalent of telling your children that they came from a stork or a cabbage patch so as to not mention the word "sex." I roll my eyes every time I have to read about Santa visiting stores and what not. Santa is NOT the only way to teach your kids how to behave. If you believe that, then you are truly demented and need professional help.

But truth be told, I'm not very festive and I don't have the holiday spirit in me. I can relate to the character Scrooge, though I'm not as bad as him. But I enjoy Halloween much more because it's fun and it's my only excuse to dress up as a female, lol.

Then again, I'm not a Christian nor a believe in Christ. So it doesn't appeal to me as it would to my family.

The whole point is that they are "going off" about what others do. They want the time of the year they currently celebrate as "Christ's Birthday" to be refered to solely as "Christmas time". That negates other people's and faiths' holidays occuring around the same time. Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, Ramadan, Las Posadas, Boxing Day, etc. are all equally valid expressions of celebration. People of the Jewish faith have been celebrating Hanukkah for about 2170 years. I mentioned before that the current version of Christmas only began to come into existance about 140 years ago. Christmas as we know it has only been celebrated six percent as long as Hanukkah, so using "it's a tradition" as an excuse dosen't wash.

I'll grant that the observance of Christ's birthday has been going on longer than that, but, for the church's first three centuries, Christmas wasn't in December—or on the calendar at all. If observed at all, the celebration of Christ's birth was usually lumped in with Epiphany (January 6), one of the church's earliest established feasts. Some church leaders even opposed the idea of a birth celebration. Birthdays were for pagan gods.

The eventual choice of December 25 reflects a convergence of concern about pagan gods and the church's identification of God's son with the celestial sun. December 25 already hosted two other related festivals: natalis solis invicti the Roman "birth of the unconquered sun", and the birthday of Mithras, the Iranian "Sun of Righteousness" whose worship was popular with Roman soldiers. The winter solstice, another celebration of the sun, fell just a few days earlier. Seeing that pagans were already exalting deities with some parallels to the idea of Christ, church leaders decided to commandeer the date and introduce a new festival. In effect, The church deliberately chose December 25 so that Christ’s birth would replace the birthday of the sun.

During the medieval period (c.400AD - c.1400AD) Christmas was a time for feasting and merrymaking. It was a predominantly secular festival but contained some religious elements. From the middle of the 17th century until the early 18th century the Christian Puritans suppressed Christmas celebrations in Europe and America. After a lull in Christmas celebrations the festival returned in the Victorian Era. Christmas was declared a national holiday by Ulysses S. Grant in 1870.

Exactly, so we should be wishing people "Io Saturnalia", as that's the more ancient greeting for the holiday season. That's how it always was, until the medieval Christians changed things on us.

I still go for "Happy Holidays" or "Seasons Greetings", as they include all possible holy days. I'm not against Christians (or anyone else for that matter) using "Merry Christmas", but I am against them taking issue against other forms of well-wishing at that time of the year. Actually, I'm against any attempt to place exclusivity on a date/time of year.

Eh, you should know by now that it's what matters to the Christians, not anyone else.

Oh, good grief.

I thought the notion of the "War on Christmas", and the "War on the War on Christmas" had been a passing trend.

I'm watching Christmas commercials before Thanksgiving. As long as that's the case, no matter what we saw, short of "Death to Santa Claus", Christmas is comfortable and safe.

I don't think this is about "political correctness"--it's about insecurity, and totally uncalled for insecurity at that.

I think it's the intention that counts and people just want to be nice. I don't see the point in getting offended over that. I also find political corectness disturbing and wrong because it allows people to get offended by other people's beliefs and it generally hinders free speech. Who cares you're not a christian, the person who expressed the wish did it in good faith and in good intentions and he merely expressed his feelings in the manner familiar to him. Asking him not to say merry christmas to you because you're not a christian is selfish and inflicting on his right to express his religion. They are not trying to convert anyone to christianity and besides, anyone's faith or lack of faith should be stronger than a merry christmas wish now and then.

I've always been in the exact same situation. For me, Christmas has never been about wishing Jesus a happy birthday- it's about giving and decorating and family and the spirit of the season, not anything religious.

I get it, but then again, what other BIG holiday get celebrated at that time of the year throughout the whole world other than Christmas? (Yes it is celebrated in non-Christian countries, unlike Hanukkah or the other holidays on December.)

I think both "Merry Christmas" and "Happy Holidays" work and I use both. Personally when I use the former I really mean it. I really wish them to have a merry Christmas. And when I use the latter, that usually includes both the Christmas and the new year OR for other people that I know aren't Christians.

And I don't think it's the Christians overreacting when the world want to erase their holiday name. I think other religions will act the same way if they face the same situation, imagine how Muslims will react if people want to replace "Happy Eid" with "Happy Holidays" or the Jews' "Happy Hanukkah"? (And yes those holidays are also commercialized as well.)

Some of you guys are talking about completely replacing the term Christmas with a secular word here, that's why some people react so badly.

For those who celebrate the "secular aspect of the holiday", I think they shouldn't celebrate Christmas at all.

Sigh... no such luck. We have this same debate every single year. Honestly, with how much of a commercial holiday Christmas has become, I don't see why people make such a big fuss... it's a bit silly. Generally, people aren't saying Merry Christmas with the intention of trying to force Christianity on others, and they typically aren't "presumptuously" assuming that the entire world is Christian, either. In most cases, they're just trying to spread the holiday cheer or acknowledge someone with a seasonal greeting. At the same time, people who say Happy Holidays aren't usually trying to attack Christianity; they're just trying to say something that can cater to as wide a variety of people as possible without potentially offending someone while simultaneously spreading some form of holiday cheer.

In both cases, you've got people who are just trying to be pleasant and polite. If you don't celebrate any holiday during the winter, or celebrate some holiday other than Christmas, then I'm sure it's perfectly acceptable to be less than thrilled with the prospect of facing all those Merry Christmases and Happy Holidays. But for heaven's sake, move on. It's a sad state of affairs when people decide that this, of all things, is something to get worked up about.

Amen (lol) jhd.

Why can't people just take the well wishes? If someone said, "Happy Hanukkah" or something else to me I'd just be happy they wanted to wish me happiness.

Forget the words... take the sentiment...

It's called a debate. People are supposed to get worked up about a debate topic or it fails to be a debate. I'm sure most of the people in this thread don't really care that much. I know I don't.

Presumptuous or not, they are assuming that the person celebrates Christmas or would appreciate a Christmas greeting.

Where I live, EVRYONE says Merry Christmas around this time. No one means it in a 'offensive' way. I say it, that does'nt I assume everyone is a Christian, 'cause I know that and everyone had their diffrent religions. I personally, have no religion, I'm not a Christian and I don't believe in god, but thats' just my opinion. Because i don't believe in christ and god, I don't get offended when people tell me to have a merry christmas, I just see them as being polite. I don't see why people from other religions find it offensive, people are just being polite and genuine. My family christmas has nothing to do with religion either.


Edit: OMG. the x-mas thing. All my friends says it when we're texting eachother on christmas eve or on MSN or if i'm writing one of those tiny gift tags I write X-mas, my way is purely of shortening the word, not 'crossing out christ', even though I don't believe in him, but I mean it as shortening word nothing offensive.

I also never really thought about it. I usually say 'Merry Christmas' but I live in a very Christian community. A friend said 'Happy Kwanza' (stupid since sh eknows I celebrate Christmas) but I just replied "Thanks, you too!"

I do not think people should find it insulting if they are greeted as Merry Christmas. People are being NICE and it shouldn't matter what they use between 'Happy Holidays' and 'Merry Christmas' because it is usually done with good intentions.

Also, the whole X-mas thing is silly I think. If you Christians think about it, the X could symbolize the cross. And I usually say C-mas on boxes anyways. lol

:D

Hey romans celebrated christmas before christianity was invented.

The point is what its called doesn't matter it's just about having fun.

Thank you, coltraz. As a debate room moderator, I'm actually aware of how debates work.

And the point I was trying to make is that... it's not really worth getting worked up over, which would imply that it doesn't bother me all that much either.



Yes, in the same way that on any normal day shopkeepers and strangers assume that you wish to receive a non-holiday greeting... perhaps we should just abolish greetings altogether.

I meant a Christmas greeting in particular. But you're right that it's silly to be offended by a well-intentioned expression, and I made that point earlier in the thread. I find being offended by "Merry Christmas" rather than "Happy Holidays" slightly less silly than the other way around, I guess, just because it's pretty ridiculous to think Christianity's going extinct.

I'm not offended by being wished a "Merry Christmas", especially if it's by a random stranger. However, when I reply "Happy Holidays" (because I don't celebrate Christmas) and the person tells me that I'm wrong to do so, then I'm offended. Christians want me to respect their right to their way of belief, but aren't willing to extend the same right to me, and "Christmas time" is just part of that.

I'm also a firm believer of seperation of church and state, as mandated by the constitution. The Christian holiday of "Christmas" is the only religious based Federal holiday, promoting one type of faith above all others. As such, it is un-constitutional and should be abolished as a Federal holiday.

I find it amusing that with as many Christians who will be upset with me for having this view, there are many sects (there are approximately 38,000 Christian denominations in the world) who believe that the concept of Christmas is blasphemous. Now, which Christian is right?