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Scholar
#76 Old 29th Nov 2008 at 12:53 PM
Quote: Originally posted by icequeen6767
It doesnt seem like a 'Holy Day'

Hmm, good point. If people are offended by the Christ in Christmas, why not the holy in holiday?
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Mad Poster
#77 Old 29th Nov 2008 at 2:05 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Daisie
I hate that attitude. Saying "Happy Holidays" or "winter break" is not an attempt to take your Christianity away from you, but an inclusive gesture that doesn't leave out those of other religions. It's said out of politeness and sensitivity, not malice. Christmas is included in the winter holidays, after all.

davious, I think you're confusing atheism and (social) secularism. "Happy Holidays" is not an atheist expression. It's an inclusive one.


You've just said what I meant in much more eloquent terms .

Do I dare disturb the universe?
.
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Field Researcher
#78 Old 29th Nov 2008 at 5:21 PM
I think you should be allowed to say whatever phrase you want to wish people good times and tidings of joy as its said in that christmas hymn.

If someone gets offended by something as simple as Merry Christmas then they should really take a good long hard look at themselves and question why they get offended by it. I have friends who are of different religions and wish each other a Merry Christmas, and my Uncle by marriage is a Sikh and wishes everyone a Merry Christmas. Its one religion's festival, so why should those who celebrate it be made to strip away everything incase it offends someone? Its sad when people aren't allowed to call a Christmas Party a Christmas party incase it offends <insert religon here>, or call things christmas lights, christmas decorations etc etc because of the same reasons. Its not that people are offended its because those PC people assume they will be offended. I'm more offended that they think that and do this on behalf of others.

It has always and will be Christmas to me, and I'm not even religious. Phrases like 'Winter Holidays' etc do not bring to mind the happy times I have had as a child or still have to this day.
Lab Assistant
#79 Old 29th Nov 2008 at 6:25 PM
I was told (when I worked in retail) to wish customers either "Happy Holidays" or "Seasons Greetings". Why? To make the customer happy. As a good retail drone, my job was to make the customer happy.

That said, I normally wish people "Happy Christmas" because I celebrate both secular Christmas and holy Christmas. It's the same reason I send out Christmas cards; I celebrate the holiday and want to spread the good news (not change). My friends and loved ones send me cards, some Hanukkah some Seasons Greetings, etc etc and I'm actually happy about this. Why? They're saying to me good tidings, not trying to convert me. Really, I don't see the problem.

I say tomAto, you say tomAHto. It means the same thing. I'm wishing you "have a good day" and you're wishing me "have a good day, too". We all do it in our own way.

I'm indifferently curious.
8/2010
9/2011
#80 Old 29th Nov 2008 at 7:04 PM
Merry Christmas is fine by me!

If I am wrong to say that, then are the shops wrong to have sales for Christmas, to sell Christmas cakes, Christmas deals? I don't consider myself Christian, the holiday has no religious importance to me :] So I think everyone can celebrate it...

And if I say it to someone who is offended? Well they can bite my stockings
Field Researcher
#81 Old 29th Nov 2008 at 7:39 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Rabid
Personally, I think that telling someone "Merry Christmas" when you're not sure of their religious orientation is highly presumptious and condescending. It suggests that you assume they are Christian, and even if that's not offensive to them, it's unfair and politically incorrect to make that assumption. It doesn't keep me awake at nights and I don't sweat it, but it's the principle of the thing. I think it's just callous and insensitive. I have a Jewish friend who people are constantly wishing a merry Christmas instead of a happy Hannukah, and if that's not rude, then what is? It shows disrespect for her values. Why not just say "Happy Holidays"- it serves the same purpose and provides much less controversy.


And you know, it's this kind of perspective that leads the notion, factual or not , that there is a "war on Christmas" in general. Not that I'm trying to take shots at you or that I doubt that your heart is in the right place with what you're saying. Quite the contrary actually. I can see you're trying to encourage people to be inclusive. And for that I applaud you.

But here's where I take issue with what you're saying. You're assuming everyone takes things as deeply as you do. And that's a mistake. With a lot of people, there's nothing more behind their Merry Christmas than that wish of a happy holiday. So they are trying to be inclusive and getting slapped down for it because they don't cater to the slapper's traditions. When in very many cases, the Christmas wisher is just doing what they know. Christmas has long ago ceased being a mere "holy day" in favor of being a "secular holiday". As such, it is the observance the majority of society knows best.

A personal example if I may. Whenever Barook or one of our other Muslim friends on here posts about one of their holidays, I always try to go in and offer them well wishes for their season. I've even asked about symbolism of the occasion at times trying to see how they compare and contrast with the holidays I grew up with. But do I offer the same wishes to Muslim folks I see out in public? Not as a general rule. Why the difference in behavior? Because not having grown up with the Islamic holidays, I don't know them all that well. So the only time they tend to cross my mind is when Barook or someone else on here mentions them. If I were like in a parking lot and saw a Muslim coming from a car with an Eid or Ramadan related bumper sticker or other such reminder, would I offer the wish? Most likely yes. But if I can't tell they are from a different tradition, I'm just as likely to wish them Merry Christmas because I have no reason to know they celebrate something else.

For all the positive intentions toward inclusiveness, the thing that tends to bug me about political correctness as a standard is that it tries to presume other people's thoughts and ask questions later. To me, true inclusion is like the holiday routine Picos described. It's not the phrasing of the holiday wish that matters so much as the spirit behind it. If you know someone observes a different holiday than you do, is it best to cater the wish to that occasion if you can? Absolutely. It honors them and their traditions. But unless someone makes a particular stink about the religious side of Christmas, it strikes me as much more disrespectful and exclusionary to impute religious meaning on a "Merry Christmas" wish from a well-meaning soul and scold them for it than it does to just return a more generic greeting and use the energy on more pressing matters.
Field Researcher
#82 Old 29th Nov 2008 at 8:33 PM
cappyboy, you took what I felt and wrote it down better than I did. People who assume that Merry Christmas in this day and age has a deeper meaning are forgetting that a lot more people now, unlike 40-50 years ago, celebrate Christmas as a time for family and giving and not as a religious festival. I look forward to christmas dinner, the decorations, the christmas songs and watching films on TV and eating faaaar too much

We as Christian based nations allow other religions within our boundries to celebrate their festivals without demanding a name change incase it offends our Christian ways, so why should we? And refraning from saying Merry Christmas because you're not sure what religion someone is going to get old after a while - you can't tip-toe around people all the time and making sure everything is nice and dandy - it never has been and never will. People get offended over everything and anything - if we are to stop calling Christmas its name then we might as well not do anything incase it offends someone *eye roll*
Top Secret Researcher
#83 Old 29th Nov 2008 at 9:24 PM
Somehow I've managed to agree with Rabid and cappyboy. The ideal and least presumptuous/insensitive situation, IMO, is an expression that's as religion-neutral as possible (even "Happy Holidays" excludes those who don't celebrate a winter holiday) and a warm reception for any well-intentioned greeting. Because, as many have pointed out, someone who says "Merry Christmas" with a smile is not trying to convert you, but to pass along good wishes. It's silly to be offended by that.

On the other hand, Christmas has no place in public schools and institutions, where inclusion (again, as much as possible) should be the policy. The US is not a Christian-based nation, and Jewish kids and Muslim kids and Buddhist kids and atheist kids should feel just as included in school "winter holiday" parties as Christian kids.

Mad Poster
#84 Old 29th Nov 2008 at 9:37 PM
I'm a Christian. But if I were in a Jewish community and someone said Happy Hanukkah I would feel good. It's the same as wishing good luck! You don't really want to know the ins and outs of how that person is, it's just a friendly greeting.

The country doesn't recommend anyone to say Merry Christmas it's not a law you know, it's freedom of speech, whether you like it or not.

"Going to the chapel of Love"

the girls club . statistics . yearbook .
#85 Old 29th Nov 2008 at 9:52 PM
In Sweden the word for Christmas is Jul. Its pretty much the same word as the pagan Yule. No Christians here are offended by this though...
If I spoke English I would probably say "happy Solstice" or "happy Midwinter". Its kinda neutral...
Lab Assistant
#86 Old 29th Nov 2008 at 10:21 PM
Like others in this thread, I was raised saying "Merry Christmas" and guess what? I haven't believed God since I was 10 and I couldn't care less about humanity's issues with the various Gods they worship. I have friends of all religions and from all cultures and I still say "Merry Christmas" to them. They reply back with the greeting of their own choosing.

Christmas, to me, is a time for family, comfort and celebration. I do go to church on Christmas Eve for Midnight Mass because it's a part of my family's tradition just like how we celebrate Christmas Eve and Christmas Morning with food, hot chocolate, egg nog and presents. Heck, my brother and I even have the tradition of a snowball fight outside the church right after mass.

When I think of Christmas, I always think of the Christmas truce during World War I when, on Christmas Eve, the soldiers on both sides came out of their trenches, singing Christmas carols, giving gifts to soldiers on the opposite sides (their enemies), sharing cigarettes and talking about their families. For one short period of time, men who were trying to kill each other managed to celebrate with one another this holiday. For one short brief moment in time, there was peace.

Maybe if the world remembered this moment in history where there was peace during war, where there was celebrations with enemies-turned-friend for a few hours on a battlefield, they would see that it is more than a religious occasion, more than just a word.

"I am a fly in the ointment, I am a whisper in the shadows. I am also an old, old woman. More than that you need not know."
Field Researcher
#87 Old 30th Nov 2008 at 12:04 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Daisie
On the other hand, Christmas has no place in public schools and institutions, where inclusion (again, as much as possible) should be the policy. The US is not a Christian-based nation, and Jewish kids and Muslim kids and Buddhist kids and atheist kids should feel just as included in school "winter holiday" parties as Christian kids.


Again, what about people like myself who were raised on Christmas and aren't religious in anyway shape or form and celebrate the non-religious Christmas shall we say, the one where presents are given out, you spend time with family? Is that not also an important message about this time of year?

And why should we learn about other religions and their festivals, yet go out of our way to not celebrate the festivals of Christianity like Christmas and in turn causing other religions not to know about Christianity? What is so wrong about celebrating all festivals? It just seems people are too quick to assume we would offend someone with Christmas, when we in turn could be so easily offended by their festivals (like the ones that involves flagging yourself with knifes - that life threating if it goes wrong!).

Trying to appease everyone isn't going to work - people will always feel excluded and left out from things; its called being a teenager
Mad Poster
#88 Old 30th Nov 2008 at 12:37 AM
The message is from the heart of the giver and not necessarily the words. To be offended by two simple words are just ridiculous and some what humorous to me. When someone "wish you a Merry Christmas" they don't try to force their POV on you, they don't try to convert you to their religion. Hell most people don't even know the origin of the words "Merry Christmas", honestly it's just sensitive to be offended by it. I find it interesting how everyone is attacking Christians like we're the only one's who say it, Christians are not the only one's who say Merry Christmas. Some of you are taking the term way too literally. I don't say Merry Christmas often and not because I'm afraid of offending anyone, if I offend them then they're just going to have to deal with it, theirs a lot of other problems in this country besides a greeting, usually I'll say "Happy Holidays" though, referring to Hanukkah, Christmas and New Years.

"Going to the chapel of Love"

the girls club . statistics . yearbook .
Top Secret Researcher
#89 Old 30th Nov 2008 at 1:10 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Anyerfillag
Trying to appease everyone isn't going to work - people will always feel excluded and left out from things; its called being a teenager
True, true. But it's about being as considerate as humanly possible, I think.

In an ideal world, things would be religion-neutral, especially in public schools (someone's example earlier in the thread) and such, but I don't think saying "Christmas" instead of "holiday" or vice versa is ever something to get upset over. In all honesty, I posted mostly because I was annoyed by your "Christian-based nation" comment. I don't disagree with you all that much.

Scholar
#90 Old 30th Nov 2008 at 5:04 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Anyerfillag
And why should we learn about other religions and their festivals, yet go out of our way to not celebrate the festivals of Christianity like Christmas and in turn causing other religions not to know about Christianity?


We're not saying that Christians can't celebrate Christmas, we're just saying that they need to acknowledge that there are other types of celebrations going on at that time of year; therefore things like "Winter Break" instead of "Christmas Break".

Also, as I've mentioned before, but obviously it bears repeating (in stronger language), I have no problem with being wished "Merry Christmas"; however, many times when I respond with "Happy Holidays" I'm told in effect "No, you're wrong its MERRY CHRISTMAS, Happy Holidays is BS and you need to say MERRY CHRISTMAS idiot!" Sorry, but I do not celebrate Christmas!

Sarcasm is a body's natural defense against stupid.
Mad Poster
#91 Old 30th Nov 2008 at 5:12 AM
Quote: Originally posted by kattenijin
however, many times when I respond with "Happy Holidays" I'm told in effect "No, you're wrong its MERRY CHRISTMAS, Happy Holidays is BS and you need to say MERRY CHRISTMAS idiot!" Sorry, but I do not celebrate Christmas!


Chances are that hardly anyway says that, and whoever does say that is obviously disrespectful and senseless. As many times I've said "Happy Holidays" throughout the years not one person spoke to me in such a hostile way. Most people don't care WHAT you say, "Happy Holidays" "Merry Christmas" it's all the same to them, they acknowledge it and keep moving. But I do understand your viewpoint, America does have a way of only acknowledging Christianity. But you can only blame our founding fathers for that.

"Going to the chapel of Love"

the girls club . statistics . yearbook .
Field Researcher
#92 Old 30th Nov 2008 at 2:01 PM
Its just our country calls itself that Daisie (I'm from the UK) as its the religion of state, and all big events (such as the recent Rememberance Day) have been until the last 10 or so years (or even more recent than that) conducted in Christian churches. We are of course much more multi-cultral now but we are based on Christianity (what with being invaded by the Romans all those years ago).
Field Researcher
#93 Old 30th Nov 2008 at 3:18 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Daisie

On the other hand, Christmas has no place in public schools and institutions, where inclusion (again, as much as possible) should be the policy. The US is not a Christian-based nation, and Jewish kids and Muslim kids and Buddhist kids and atheist kids should feel just as included in school "winter holiday" parties as Christian kids.


And here we are again. Guess at some point we're going to have go further over the transition Christmas has undergone over the years. But I'll open the job of citing chapter and verse to the floor. Digging up the facts would take more effort than I have the inclination toward running on stray interludes of sleep.

But it's funny you mention the atheist kids. When I was in grade school, we had this one guy named Kelly in class whose family was atheist. And I'm talking hardcore, Madeline Murray O'Hare type atheists. And when it came to the holidays like Christmas or Easter that had religious components, he was indeed the odd man out. But it wasn't our fault or that the teachers. It was his parents fault. They were so anti-God they would insist that Kelly not participate in celebrations of God-related holidays. Before we started our celebrations, we'd have to give him time to go to the library or wherever it was they sent him. We in the class always missed Kelly and it took us years before we understood why he couldn't join us for the Christmas or Easter party. With other students, we most often couldn't have told you one another's religious affiliation unless we also went to church together. The fact we were classmates trumped that. But because he couldn't join us on anti-religious grounds, Kelly stuck out much more so than if his parents hadn't chosen to ignore the secularization of these holidays. If a family from one of the other religions you described chooses to see that secularization as a double whammy and act as Kelly's family had, that is their sad prerogative. But in the end, all that does is cause everybody to miss out and surely that's not what we want.
Theorist
#94 Old 30th Nov 2008 at 4:21 PM
Considering both Winter (Christmas) break and Spring (Easter) break can find their roots in religion, meaning they wouldn't exist without the Christian celebrations of Christmas or Easter, if you wanted to remove God from public schools entirely, fine. Take away their vacation times. Tell them they don't get a break in December, because even though its called winter break instead of Christmas break, it only exists because of the Christian holiday, and then take away their spring break too, because that originated with Easter. Oh, reminds me...you can't give them any Christmas presents either, since even as secular as it has become, its roots can be traced back to Christianity, and you might as well tell your boss that you are coming into work that day, since you don't have a justifiable excuse not to anymore. Why should you get Christmas day off? You want nothing to do with any mention of religion, so why should you get the benefits of that religion? You can also stop spending money on chocolate Easter eggs, bunnies, etc, since Easter has Christian overtones too. Valentines Day? Forget about it! It celebrates a catholic saint! Halloween? Well, that is a combination of Celtic and Christian themes, as it is All Hallow's eve, meaning the next day is important...what is the next day, other than simply being Nov 1? All Saints Day, Reformation day. Not to mention, some Wiccans claim Halloween is offensive to them, as it mocks "real" witchcraft. So, you better stop giving out candy. Stop wearing green on St. Patricks day, again, celebrating an Irish catholic saint? Shoot, even New Years Day has its roots based in Roman mythology, so it isn't secular either. Better avoid New Orleans in spring, Mardi Gras is based on the Christian notion of lent, and why were the pilgrims here to celebrate the first Thanksgiving? Because they sailed across the Atlantic seeking religious freedom. Wow. If we took out all of the religious holidays, what do you have left?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obama on ABC's This Week, discussing Obamacare
What it's saying is, is that we're not going to have other people carrying your burdens for you anymore
umm...Isn't having other people carry your medical burden exactly what national health care is?
Field Researcher
#95 Old 30th Nov 2008 at 5:34 PM
Nothing it would seem Davious! And you raise a very very good point about not wanting Christmas or any other religious festival within school, yet expecting to have the time off.

Also - if you want to exclude religion from schools, how on Earth are we meant to teach respect and understanding of other faiths and cultures? I only know about Islam, Hinduism and Buddism through my RE lessons as where I am they weren't at the time big religions (i.e there weren't many people belonging to those religions living in my area. I have an Uncle by marriage who is a Sikh so have known about that religion through family). If you remove teachings about other religions and the respect you have to show towards them, whose to say we won't see even more misunderstanding of religions and their followers than we see now? Its called an education, and if we want our children to grow up with respect we need to educated them about the world, even religion.
Top Secret Researcher
Original Poster
#96 Old 30th Nov 2008 at 5:43 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Anyerfillag
if you want to exclude religion from schools, how on Earth are we meant to teach respect and understanding of other faiths and cultures?

We weren't really taught about religons untill my sophmore year in high school.
In Elementary school we all liked each other. We all respected each other besides the natural kid behavior.
Junior High, we all respected each other. We learned from each other on what they celebrate. Then, we acted as if the person wasn't normal.
Now in High school we are adapting to the fact that not everyone is the same.

It's the way of life. You learn everyday.

So when someone says, "Happy Monkeysarecool"
Then you say, "You too!"

So long, my luckless romance
My back is turned on you
I should've known you'd bring me heartache
Almost lovers always do

Scholar
#97 Old 1st Dec 2008 at 5:01 AM
Quote: Originally posted by davious
Considering both Winter (Christmas) break and Spring (Easter) break can find their roots in religion, meaning they wouldn't exist without the Christian celebrations of Christmas or Easter, if you wanted to remove God from public schools entirely, fine. Take away their vacation times. Tell them they don't get a break in December, because even though its called winter break instead of Christmas break, it only exists because of the Christian holiday, and then take away their spring break too, because that originated with Easter.


Sorry! Wrong! Solstice and Equinox celebrations were part of many religious and secular groups before Christianity came on the scene.


Quote:
Oh, reminds me...you can't give them any Christmas presents either, since even as secular as it has become, its roots can be traced back to Christianity, and you might as well tell your boss that you are coming into work that day, since you don't have a justifiable excuse not to anymore. Why should you get Christmas day off?


Again, the exchange of gifts existed before Christianity. However, I do agree with having Christmas Day a regular work day. Actually, if you work for certain companies, even today, they are open on holiday days.

Quote:
You want nothing to do with any mention of religion, so why should you get the benefits of that religion? You can also stop spending money on chocolate Easter eggs, bunnies, etc, since Easter has Christian overtones too. Valentines Day? Forget about it! It celebrates a catholic saint!


Again, pre-Christian Equinox celebrations cover this. Research why things like bunnies/chicks/eggs are symbols of the hoilday. Valentines's day is a made-up holiday anyway .

Quote:
Halloween? Well, that is a combination of Celtic and Christian themes, as it is All Hallow's eve, meaning the next day is important...what is the next day, other than simply being Nov 1? All Saints Day, Reformation day. Not to mention, some Wiccans claim Halloween is offensive to them, as it mocks "real" witchcraft. So, you better stop giving out candy.


Again, covered by pre-Christian Autumnal Equinox celebrations.

Quote:
Stop wearing green on St. Patricks day, again, celebrating an Irish catholic saint? ... Better avoid New Orleans in spring, Mardi Gras is based on the Christian notion of lent...


Sure, nuke them. But, you'll notice we've never said get rid of Christmas, just that it needs to be recognised as one of many celebrations at the time of year.

Quote:
and why were the pilgrims here to celebrate the first Thanksgiving? Because they sailed across the Atlantic seeking religious freedom.


Exactly what we've been discussing.

Quote:
Shoot, even New Years Day has its roots based in Roman mythology, so it isn't secular either.


Again, there are MANY other religious and secular groups than the Romans who celebrated the new year. New Year celebrations are probably one of the oldest rituals known to man.

Quote:
Wow. If we took out all of the religious holidays, what do you have left?


Broke out the day planner:

Birthday of Martin Luther King, Jr.
Lincoln's Birthday
President's Day
Washington’s Birthday
Administrave Professionals Day
Holocaust Remembrance Day
Mothers' Day
Armed Forces Day
Memorial Day
Flag Day
Fathers' Day
Independence Day
Labor Day
Patriot Day
Columbus Day
National Boss Day
United Nations Day
Veterans Day
Pearl Harbor Remembrance Day

Just to name a few. (Many of which, have a lot more social significance than Christmas. It's a pitty we don't give them more attention.)


Edumacation: FTW!

Sarcasm is a body's natural defense against stupid.
Forum Resident
#98 Old 1st Dec 2008 at 9:15 AM
"Don we now our gay apparel,
Fa la la, la la la, la la la.
Troll the ancient Yule tide carol,
Fa la la la la, la l la la."

Yuletide is the name of the PRE-CHRISTIAN pagan holy day that became Christmas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule

Quote:
Yule is a winter festival identified with Christmas in modern times.[1] The pagan Germanic peoples celebrated Yule from late December to early January on a date determined by the lunar Germanic calendar.[2] When the Julian calendar was adopted in northern Europe, Yule was placed on December 25 to correspond with the date of Christmas.[3]

The word "Yule" come from the same root as the word "jolly." Modern Yule traditions include decorating a fir or spruce tree, burning a Yule log, hanging mistletoe and holly branches, giving gifts, and general celebration and merriment.


So all that stuff is PAGAN. When you do that, you're honoring other Gods. There's a commandment about that, I think, isn't there?

This is also why Jehovah's Witnesses and some other religions (for instance, early American Puritans, like the ones that came over on the Mayflower) do not celebrate Christmas or Easter.
Theorist
#99 Old 1st Dec 2008 at 1:12 PM
kattenijin, so, you are okay with celebrating pagan holidays, but not Christian ones? Pagan religions are still religions, aren't they? What is the difference, if you truly believe in complete separation of church of state? If you are 100% secular, holidays that have pagan roots should be just as abhorrent to you as other religiously based holidays...unless the problem isn't really that its religious, but rather, that is it is specifically Christianity you are against...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obama on ABC's This Week, discussing Obamacare
What it's saying is, is that we're not going to have other people carrying your burdens for you anymore
umm...Isn't having other people carry your medical burden exactly what national health care is?
e3 d3 Ne2 Nd2 Nb3 Ng3
retired moderator
#100 Old 1st Dec 2008 at 1:30 PM
I'm all for as many holidays and celebrations as possible. I don't care whose god or religion we are celebrating- just bring it on! Any excuse for cake and a drink.
 
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