It's the second story that I'll be telling Of course, my sims might have a different plan, but it's the general storyline that I'll be going with

Sneak peak at the update of my blog I'm almost done with: the Duchy of Penderholms:



Click on the picture for a larger version.

Ever since Heloise first mentioned the idea of a self-sustaining economy, I've been trying out lots of different ideas and systems so that I can determine exchange rates. I'd only recently settled on a method I liked, and started rebuilding my Warwickshire hood. Since my system actually meshes pretty well with different aspects of the challenge, I though it might be worth sharing.

To start with I randomly assign the adults and teens a Success and Intelligence level out of three. (I consider Success to represent something like the values towards work that the sim was raised with. Offspring inherit their levels from their parents.) I identify the levels by combinations of upper and lowercase letters, i.e. SS, Ss, ss and II, Ii, and ii. SS sims are given an extra want slot with with the simblender, and II sims are made smart with the batbox (meaning they permanently skill at the rate of smart milk). Ss sims stay standard, and ss sims are given an extra fear slot with the simblender. Ii sims can only skill when they have a want to do so, and ii sims can never be directed to skill. Which means that they only gain skills from things they can do autonomously.

The way I use this for my economy is that each Success and Intelligence level is assigned a value. SS and II = 3, Ss and Ii = 2, ss and ii = 1. I then multiply the success and intelligence values, and the result is then positively or negatively modified by a sim's motivation. Motivation is the difference between a sim's activeness and playfulness points. I call the final value Resource Points, and they represent how much economy related activity a sim can do in a day. This is expressed differently based on class, so eg for peasant's it might be how many animals or garden plots they can maintain, whilst for the nobility it could be how many serfs they can have working on their land (which storywise would probably be how effectively they manage their estate.)

This puts hard limits on supply, which is essential for me because I'm a bit of a min-maxer who will neglect story if I don't have hard limits. I've tried many different methods of setting limits, but I like this one because it gives me a pretty big range. Plus when combined with ethics it's pretty interesting, like I have a serf family who has the second highest amount of resource points, yet they live in a hovel with no way to use their points. They have the drive to succeed, but not the opportunity. Combined with the fact that the whole family is Authoritarian except for their youngest daughter who is a Radical, the story pretty much writes its self. Additionally it's possible for a family to have negative resource points, which pretty much forces conflict.

Economically this system makes it pretty easy to figure out at a glance an appropriate exchange rate for everything. I haven't played my families yet, but just glancing at my spreadsheet I can see that wool and vegetables are going to be fairly cheap, and that eggs and pork are going to be a bit expensive.

Anyway, I hope someone found that interesting! Sorry if it's not too clear, I've had a few to drink

Lisail, this system sounds awesome! I really love it. :lovestruc I am going to be very interested in hearing how all of this affects exchange rates for your nh. Exchange rates are something that each player should set on their own anyway, because they should vary from region to region and, of course, from player to player depending upon the exact circumstances of their nh story. I just love that you've developed a house system to determine the industriousness of all your sims. This sounds like something I would love to use! Thanks so much for sharing. And I think you were perfectly clear!

Samantha_Kathy, I am totes looking forward to seeing that new duchy develop. It looks awesome already!

The update on my blog is finished *cheers* It only took me about two weeks. The Duchy of Gyfford was already on my blog - with all information about the households and people in it - but now I've also added the Duchy of Penderholms. Under Lay of the Land, you can read all about this Duchy when you click on The Kingdom of Wyckeham. I've also added a page that constains all the Households in the Duchy of Penderholms. Every person in those households have been added to The Inhabitants of Wyckeham, under their proper class. The link to my blog is in my signature. Have fun exploring this new Duchy while I work on the last Duchy to be added to the Kingdom

As for exchange rates, lisail, you're system sounds very nice. I've got a fairly simple system in mind, that will allow the prices of things to change due to circumstances (for instance, if there's a bad harvest, or if something that was always imported can now be produced within the kingdom). It's a point system with three categories.

Category 1: Scarcity (how much of something is produced in total):

< 5 families producing a product: 3 points
5-10 families producing a product: 2 points
10-20 families producing a product: 1 point
>20 families producing a product: 0 points

The amount of families as they are linked to the points in this category can be adjusted if the population grows (or shrinks) significantly.

Category 2: Transportation costs (which areas is the item produced/how far must it travel to get to the consumer):

Product must be imported from outside the kingdom: 3 points
Product is only produced in a certain region(s) of the kingdom: 2 points if buyer/consumer is outside this region, 1 point if buyer/consumer is within this region
Product is produced in the entire kingdom: 0 points

For instance, only the monks in the Duchy of Whitecomb produce alcohol. A pub owner in the Duchy will pay less for the alcohol (only has to add 1 point to the points total), while a pub owner in the Duchy of Penderholms will have to pay more (2 points added to the total points) fr the alcohol, as it needs to be transported over a longer distance.

Category 3: Skills needed to produce the item

High level of skill needed (Craftsman made it, or gold badge needed): 3 points
Medium level of skill needed (Journeyman made it, or silver badge needed): 2 points
Little skill needed (Apprentice made it, or bronze badge needed): 1 point
No skill needed (everyone can make it, or no badge needed): 0 points

This category makes sure hard to produce items or items produced by an expert are more expensive. More skills means a better item. More skills also means more was paid to get educated in that skill. Proper compensation is needed.

Now, for the actual payments:

<4 points: item is cheap (<150 simoleons)
4-6 points: item is average in cost (150-500 simoleons)
>6 points: item is expensive (>500 simoleons)

Exactly how expensive something is also depends on how many points it earned as well as the greed of the merchant. For instance, a crate of tomatoes might score 3 points. A greedy merchant might ask 100 simoleons for it, while a less greedy merchant might ask only 60. If the next year there is a huge crop of tomatoes, since many families have chosen to grow tomatoes that year, a crate of tomatoes might only score 2 points. The price will drop accordingly (but still within the cheap segment of prices), and the greedy merchant will now request 75 simoleons, while the less greedy merchant will ask 50.

If we move up the chain of consumers, prices will rise accordingly, because the prices in the point system will be added to the cost of producing. For instance, take the chain: farmer of fibers --> tailor --> buyer. The farmer grows his crop of sunflowers. He's the only one who grows it, it's only grown in his region, but the tailor practically lives next door. He doesn't need any skills to grow it. His crop of sunflowers is 4 points. He asks 160 simoleons for it. The tailor uses that to make cloth and then he makes a dress out of it, and with what's left of the cloth he makes a potholder. The tailor is one of 6 tailors in the entire kingdom, scattered over all regions. He's a craftsman. The potholder only needs a bronze badge, but the dress needs a silver one. The potholder has 2 points, while the dress is 4 points. The potholder will be cheap - it cost 40 to make, so he'll sell it for 55. The dress will be average in price. It cost 120 to make, and he'll sell it for 350.

This way, the point system will give me some guidelines, but prices can rise and fall within this system, as well as be determined by the individual sim (and their greed). Because prices can differ between sims, there can be competition. I'm foreseeing a lot of fun with this

Wow, you guys: these systems are Awesome! #1 WIN. Ya know, since I don't really have the appendixes entirely written yet, kinda makes me think about player submitted recommendations for the self-sustaining economy appendix. I have a few of my own ideas, but these are really cool and sound like they've been playtested with good results. What say everyone? Would you like to compile several different player created systems for the self-sustaining economy to be included as appendixes to 3.0? If you're interested, pm me and I'll start thinking about how it might go. Of course, any player to submit a player-created system would receive full credit in the credits, plus a huge thanks on the acknowledgements page. As another possibility, if there were enough submissions, it could just be a separate mini-EP collaboratively written ... but that makes my head spin with tons of ideas, so I'll have to table that ... just start somewheres easy for now. Ahhh ... being an ideas person is not always so easy.

Is it just me, or is poison excluded as a murder weapon in the latest version of the teaser? I can only find it under suicide... (Ask me why that's pertinent, I dare you )

It's actually counted as an accidental death, so if one sim poisons another that would be murder ... see for example Manslaughter, p. 137 where Table 79 "Accidental Deaths" is referenced there, too. And, sure ... tell me why it's pertinent?

Let's just say the King might want to watch his back The way the current storyline is evolving in my head, I actually feel slightly mean On the other hand, I've got this nifty potion downloaded that actually works as a poison - with a chance of death and a chance of survival, so it's out of my hands

Thanks for the answer. I see it now.

Thanks for sharing your system samantha_kathy

I love the idea of including an appendix with the different systems people have created. I really enjoy reading everyone's ideas, and by providing a few different example systems it should help people think about what sort of system would work for them.

Awesome! Lisail, send me a pm to arrange a way to share your system with me, so it can be included in 3.0.

How do you draw the duchy maps?

PSDuckie, I take an in-game picture with a screenshot program (I use FRAPS). Then I open the pic in a picture editor (I use Paint.net, but GIMP or any other would do), then I use the draw box tool, giving it the width and color I want--it's cool to draw the box in the color of the class level, i.e. red for a noble, blue for gentry, but whatev's you like is good, too. Then I use the text feature to name or label it. All super easy and kinda fun to do.

I've been working on setting up my town, and I have a question that is definitely inspired by Jon Snow from Game of Thrones.

I'm starting my King with two children: a legitimate son and an illegitimate daughter. Obviously, the son is a Crown Prince, but what rank would the daughter be? Like Jon Snow, she lives in her father's household.

She will have whatever rank and title her father wishes to bestow upon her. It really depends upon how magnanimous he is. I understand, for example, that King Henry was very enamored with his bastard Henry Fitzroy, so he conferred upon him a double duchy to make sure that there was no doubt about this boy's status and the fact that he was his father. Still, not all monarchs are so gracious especially when the illegitimate child is a daughter and there is already an heir produced. Let us know what you decide.

So question! I took a deep breath tonight and started this challenge. However, for my noble family #1, my Duke of Whatever has a infant nephew living with him. How do i do this? Create him as a toddler than age him down?

Also, do any of you look to history to create storylines? Like Henry VIII, Wars of the Roses, etc...

Meginmd, Great to hear!

I don't recommend aging sims down to infants--could be borky. It would be totally fine to start him out as a toddler, or just have the baby born in game. Either way. Also, I think every player is quite different, but historical storylines can be very inspiring.

Thanks M3! I wasn't sure how hard and fast these rules were.
Also, how do you kill off an infant? (that sounds morbid but IIRC, you roll at the end of each life stage, so how would you....bring about the baby's death?)

Never, never, never kill an infant. Ever. VBT things will happen. However if an infant must "die": you do have some choices that will not break your game.... Optiona A: age the baby up to a suitable age (I am okay with toddlers, but lots of people think a sim needs to be no younger than a child to kill them safely--the decision is yours, I recommend you do some research first and then decide) and then use Rodney's Death Creator (boolprop testingcheatsenabled true to spawn it). OR ... Option B: you could use this . It is a safe and tested piece of cc by a well-respected creator. As far as I understand, family ties and memories remain intact, which is a bonus. But that would be something to check on since I'm not sure--never used it, so don't actually know. Aaaaand Option C is probably the least desirable way to go, but here it is anyway, and it is super safe: put the baby up for adoption. When another family adopts, the family ties, etc will disappear (the part I don't like) and the family will not have a memory of the death (also something I don't like), but the baby will be gone and no breaking.

Does anyone else have other suggestions for killing or "killing" an infant? It is something I have thought about (morbid I know), but I have wanted to add the possibility for stillbirths and/or infant mortality, but haven't done so because none of the above options really work for me. Option A allows for families to have memories of Baby X dying, but then the ghost is too old ... which bugs me enormously. Option B ... I have considered, but I am admittedly a squeamish person ... and I don't want to remember watching my sims doing what it requires to execute (no pun intended there). And Option C, I have done, but yeah, it was not really that great, and I wouldn't do it again. Main reason these options are not in Warwickshire. And considering it is a subject that doesn't come up so often, figured it wasn't really missed that much. But ... since you asked ... there's my thoughts. Anyone else?

There's that ogre horn. http://modthesims.info/download.php?t=521770

The family ties remain intact, there's even the option of selling the infant, and it's period appropriate.

I know, I'm sorry, I hated to ask. And I actually already have that ogre horn; I love it!
In less morbid news, I finished creating all of my families, save the serfs and peasants. Though since I'm doing a 'modern' version, they're just called commoners in my game.

Samantha_Kathy--thanks for reminding me! I knew I was forgetting about something. And period appropriate: gotta love it! lol

Meginmd, sounds awesome. Can't wait to see pix (hoping shamelessly that you'll share!)

Also, lisail, I am planning to test your system to see how it works for me. Can you tell me how you modify Success and Intelligence with the Motivation score?

Also, Samantha_Kathy, for your system--how many "producers" do you usually have? Right now in my rebuild, I don't have very many at all. Just wondering how it works when you're starting out. I have one freeman family who are farmers, and one serf family who are fishermen. Do you also use the system for merchants? But then ... does that mean number of families who sell candles? Geez, sorry for all the questions.

EDIT:
OK, here's what I have so far with the whole Success/Intelligence thing. Gregory Granger is a Freeman farmer. His stats are Success: 3 (so SS, right)? Intelligence: 1 (so ii?) So, then I multiple 2 X1, to get 2. His motivation is Active Points (3 pts) minus Playful Points (8 pts), so the difference is -5. Now what do I do? He has like 20 garden squares to tend, but I'm gathering he's not gonna want to do much there. Also, he's a humanitarian good popularity sim, which makes him a social climber, so he believes that it isn't what you do, but who you know that helps you to get ahead. Kinda makes even more sense now that I see he isn't going to be that motivated to work the garden. He'd probably rather be drinking at the pub! His wife is an authoritarian good romance sim, so she is a "celibate," but since she is married, she actually just spends most of her time in bed with Gregory, which makes sense, given that celibates who marry will require a deep and abiding relationship with their beloved to stay happy in their marriages. Her stats are Success: 3, Intelligence, 1. Her motivation is 7-3, or 4. So, I guess she is the main source of energy in the family. They are both in excellent health, so they should be able to do a lot of work, but I love that they might not anyway.

No problem! I still have to email you my lists as well, which I hope I'll get to sometimes next week. It's crazy busy running up to Christmas right now.

In the system, I don't make a seperation between family classes. A serf who grows food to sell is counted, just as a freeman who grows food to sell. Having a little vegetable plot just to feed your own family, though, doesn't count. For instance, I've got a Master of Ceremonies at court who lives in a servant appartment, where he has a little veggie plot to feed himself. He's got a very irregular salary, and then he still doesn't earn all that much. But he doesn't sell anything, so he's not counted as a producer.

Here's the list of producers in my kingdom at the start of my playing:

Farming: 9
Orchard fruits: 3
Mushrooms: 1

Pigs: 1
Cows: 1
Chicken 2

Honey & Beeswax: 1

Fiber: 1
Woodcutter: 1
Clay: 1

Alcoholic beverages: 1

Tailor: 1
Pub: 2
Potions: 1
Candlemaker: 1
Trader: 1

As you can see, anyone who makes and then sells something in the kingdom is on the list. Some are on there twice, for instance the monks produce both grapes (orchard fruits) and alcoholic beverages.There are two pubs, so pub prices will be higher than if there were 10 pubs. I've got three people in the candlemaking business, a master, a journeyman, and an apprentice. But the master owns one shop, while the journeyman works for the master, as does the apprentice. If the master opens a second shop, there will still be only 1 producer. The scarcity score won't change, as the master still has full control over the prices. However, if the journeyman opens up his own shop, there'll be 2 producers selling candles.

The system is flexible. If you have very few producers overall in the kingdom (in all categories, not just one), adjust the number of families down. Say, 1-2 families is 3 points, 3-5 is 2, and 5-10 is 1, and >10 is 0. If your population has grown a lot and you've got a lot of producers, adjust the numbers up.

OK, cool. That means that I have a *lot* of work to do to set up how many producers, of what, where, etc, etc. Have you seen all the new vegetables and other plants over at PBK? It is staggering, all the new possibilities! Gotta get figgerin' on biggerin' my economy!!!

I did see the new veggies over at PBK. I'm still uncertain if I'll download them. I've got the standard season ones, and then some of the pickable ones from Echo (?) and others based on that. I've got things like cabbages and pumkins and even herbs in pots. I usually use the season ones (more work) but might give them some others too. So I'm not so sure I need any more. I do have the PBK fruit trees (and other craft stations), but if I look at the long list of things still to come (which has me so excited), I think I might just save myself some harddrive space for that instead.

EDIT: On the other hand, the whole seedling part is kinda neat.