No, the "not natural" argument is not weak because humans make decisions and decisions that humans make are "natural". Rather, the "not natural" argument is weak, because humans know better and should use reason over natural behavior. Studies have shown that confirmation bias is one natural behavior, when there is too much data. So, the best way to think rationally or critically is to go after the opinions that sound contrary to one's own, and that behavior is not natural. Yet, it is morally beneficial, because that's exactly what rational people should do to avoid bias. Moreover, Mother Nature cannot be judged as moral or immoral. Rather, it is commonly believed that Mother Nature has no morality at all. It is what it is. Sometimes, nature brings happy moments for people. Sometimes, nature can cause severe damages to individuals, without the individual doing any wrong at all. The only way to cope with non-moral nature is to make the best of it and try to improve our own lives for the better, or in social Darwinian terms, survival of the fittest. All the best fit in the environment to survive, and for those not fit, help them, which is morally acceptable, adjust to the environment so they have higher chances of survival.

I must say, I stumbled upon this forum by accident while looking for something else, but it caught my eye and I read through the whole thing, top to bottom. With the exception of a few people, I am overwhelmed by the level of tolorence and acceptance among the Sims community for GLBT people. When Maxis first made the game, i was astounded that my Sims could have same sex relationships. It was the first time I played a video game where I could see myself in the characters I created. When the later games came out, I was even more pleased by the fact that my Sims could marry each other. No one in Sunset Valley cared if my two guys made a family. No one in Bridgport screams derogatory comments at them from passing cars. Twinbrook is a thriving artist's community, which usually has a high acceptance factor. One of the reasons I love this game is because for the first time in my video gaming life, I could make ME, as I am, with no judgement. It is obvious what side Maxis/EA is on. Maybe some people could learn a few lessons from those little pixels.

Well... I wouldn't really say that Maxis/EA has chosen a side, as if they are treating the same-sex marriage controversy as a real debate with real debatable positions from two equally valid viewpoints. The truth is, there is no valid reasoning for the opposition of same-sex marriage and homosexuality in general. Because there is no valid reasoning for the opposition of same-sex marriage and homosexuality, because there is a growing tolerance and acceptance of homosexuality in Western society (America) in general, because EA/Maxis would like to increase profits rather than being seen as bigoted, because it's more technologically easier to make everybody in the Sims 3/Sims 2 game to be treated equally than not (less interactions, presumably), Maxis/EA has allowed simple interactions and reactions for the game. There can be many factors why Maxis/EA has designed the game the way it is.

Opponents of same-sex marriage would like to persuade the general public that there is a valid controversy (same goes for the climate change controversy); however, the real reason why most opponents of same-sex marriage are against the phenomenon is due to religion. Now, if they admit this, then they violate the "separation of church and state" principle, which prohibits any bill that establishes a religion or religious teachings.

As a Washingtonian, I'm proud to say our state is very close to legalizing same-sex marriages. This will make Washington the 7th state in the United States to legalize same-sex marriages. I myself am not gay, but I've known people who are and it's good to know they will have the same opportunities and rights as straight couples. As the Beatles said, all you need is love.

PS: I just realized one of the civil suits in 2004 involving same-sex marriages was "Andersen v. Sims"

Yeah, I'm rooting for Maryland to finally push the gay marriage bill through. I remember hearing about how they were considering it back when I was in high school. It's about time they finally did something about it. They're looking at it right now, so hopefully they'll finally get it through.

I don't really find it that surprising. I used to think that gay people just had anal and that's probly the main reason why I was a homophobe.
now if people who are disgusted don't take the time to understand what gay people do in the bedroom then I think they're being ignorant.
it still doesn't seem natural when you think about it because it just doesn't go in the hole..you have to use outer devices but then again do periods seem natural? not to me (it still baffles me why we women have to have periods. gross)
the word natural just needs to go away when arguing about gays.

they also argue that gay people can't procreate. a) who said sex is purely for procreation b) yes they can. have people never heard of a surrogate?
and I believe that maybe some day people of the same gender will be able to combine their DNA for kids. our technology is really advancing as years go by so you never know what will happen in the future.


right and even if it did say something about homosexuals being sinful (which in looking at the supposed passage, it's unlikely that it does), who cares?
I find it funny that people still use that piece of ancient toilet paper as the word of God.


whoa are you from Maryland? that's interesting
anyway I wasn't even aware that Maryland still hadn't passed but then again I don't pay attention to news and maybe Maryland just sucks like that (I know my city sucks anyway so the rest of MD may not be much better)

I think this is a big part of it. The majority of people who claim that homosexuality is "wrong" or "gross" or whatever else, when you get down to it, are thinking of gay men having sex.

They're not thinking of a gay person cooking breakfast for their partner, or of agreeing who will walk the kid(s) to school this week, or of sitting on the sofa watching TV together, or of beating the crap out of each other in W40k, a gay person looking after their partner when they're sick or comforting them when a family member dies... they're thinking about SEX. Because obviously SEX is the central part of any healthy romantic relationship, right?

And gay people aren't really gay when we're single, because we're not having GAY SEX. This, at least, is the Anglican church's official position on the matter!

I think Gene Robinson demonstrated this quite neatly. Years ago he was asked by a radio host what he and his husband do in bed (odd thing to ask a bishop, you'd have thought). He answered along the lines of "We've been married 25 years. We do what everyone else does in bed. We sleep."
Suddenly, the whole thing didn't seem so scandalous...

exactly. it's all about da buttsecks like I said before.
anyway I kinda see where they're coming from because most people have sex in a romantic relationship (asexuals are a rare breed)...eventually, that is if they stay together but I wish they'd see other parts as well. like you said cooking breakfast, watching TV together, comforting etc...I guess if we were to think of a relationship as a banana split, sex would be at the most the ice cream not the banana. some people even have sex less than others no matter what their sexuality so sometimes sex could be just the bubblegum pieces.

if a relationship is all sex that would be boring.

I also find it strange that straight guys are the ones that often think about gay people having sex. I mean wth right? if you're straight why are you thinking about two men playing the bedroom game? are you sure you're not in the closet?

I see this topic a lot now that President Obama has come out in favor of the gay marriage. I confess on slow days I like to debate this topic with the anti-gay activists, just on the upchance that I might be able to do some good.

Here are the most common arguements I see from folks who are anti-gay marriage.

1. Cite bible verse as to why it is wrong and against god's plan.
2. Cite that it is not natural or normal for gay people to have sex.
3. Put forth that the 'sanctity' of marriage is violated.
4. Gays can't procreate.
5. Gay sex is gross.
6. Sodom and Gommorah, and the fall of Rome
7. It violates my traditional belief.
8. Gays want to 'ruin it' for others or have an agenda.
9. Gays are forcing others to accept their lifestyle.
10: God says...
11. Inevitable comparison to poligamy, incest, pedophilia etc.
12. Liberal agenda....
13. Its best for the kiddies to....
14. Bad experience with gay person colors judgement of gays in general.

Please note. I am pro-gay marriage. But these are the common comments I see from folks who are anti.

id still like to know why anal sex is such an evil thing in and of itself, anyway. heterosexuals do it PLENTY--how is it suddenly bad when gays do it?

Poop smells worse when there is a beard attached?

Chicks have butthair too.

Anal sex is "evil" because its "spilling the seed" and "killing" potential children. That's why "the church" also frowns on fellatio and masturbation. Its just as "evil" in the eyes of "the church" when its heterosexual as when homosexual, it's just not brought up as much because only "deviants" would do such a thing; not "normal people". Sex is ONLY to be used for procreation. If you aren't intending to conceive a child, you're supposed to abstain.




Well, one could always shave, or wax...

That's because everything that exists is, by nature, natural.


It's not supernatural. It's not like an alien space fairy sprinkled magic stardust and where ever the sparkly crap landed homosexuals started popping up like demented lawn gnomes that can't stop thrusting and gyrating at other magic lawngnomesexuals.

That would be absurd.

Someone needs to make these for The Sims...

Mistermook, make what exactly?

We need more fabulous gnomes. We need gnomes that turn out every day like a horrifying parody of a Pride parade, littering our Simlawns.

Ok... I don't really understand that...

in case you havent noticed, sim gnomes already appear in a variety of highly questionable positions.

/offtopic

At this point people my thought on Same-Sex marriage is the same as abortion.

"And what the hell is wrong exactly with not having children?"

P.S. I'm a gay marriage and abortion supporter. I get more crap from Catholics on a daily basis than my own ass.

agree totally. if anything having less children in this world is a good thing. it gives less chance of overpopulation.
and what do they think about gay people who want to have children? why isn't adopting enough?

EXACTLY! As if ALL the children dying somewhere in Africa just wasn't QUITE enough.

I almost wonder that the purpose of homosexuality was to adopt all the poor children?
(You know, assuming that there's some sort of god or something that assigns these types of things)

On, a different topic, I hate how just because I'm christian everyone assumes I'm homophobic. Though a lot of Christians are homophobic. I feel confused. Why can't there just be a group of people that are Christians, AND Pro-Abortion and Gay- Marriage. You always have to choose. Now, I'm just ranting. I feel like Tina Fey. (Go Liz Lemon!)

Sometimes straight men can be even "gayer"

I apologize for my last post. I will delete my post, seeing I did go off subject. I apologize for doing so.

that could be but I was thinking homosexuality's purpose could also be to make the world more diverse and help people to be more open minded about those who are different (although like we've been saying many people will never open their minds hence this thread but I think it helps some..it makes differences of non-homosexuals less apparent. not that I'm trying to make gay people sound like a stool pigeon or something but hopefully you get my point) also I think if gay people didn't exist there wouldn't be as much advocating against bullies, it would seem less important to society.

yes that's why I have often thought the world would be better without religion. it just makes everything complicated and decent people like you stereotyped