I think people should be aware of all the in and outs that come along with the organizations one chooses to be associated with. That's like me joining the Klan and then saying "But wait, I only joined for their premier linen laundry service. They sure do keep their sheets white." And then be upset because as a member I'm associated with prejudice, violence and intolerance. Guilty be association. Also, if you can't or won't act within the pronouncements of a club, why in heck are you a part of it!
Also Nascar gets the wholesome guys because good teeth sell. See: Slavery, holocaust, Real Housewifes of whatever etc etc :p

So now his religion is the KKK?

Well, last time I checked, there's a line in the Bible that's pretty explicitly in favor of not openly praying. Some translations even actually say you should literally go into a closet to do so. Just saying.

LOL, No. But the whole idea of my post was be aware of the reputation or regard a group or club you affiliated with has. I bet all you saw was the word Klan. No I'm relating Tebow to the Klan.

You bet? How much? I need a dollar as much as the rest of us.

Dismissing your allegations of reading comprehension, what I'm trying to say is that you were bringing a very volatile example to the mix. It's possibly not as bad as going "Well, if he were a Nazi he had to have known their reputation" or something like that, but I think it's fairly clear that that's the sort of implication you were aiming for.

A religious affiliation is a lot looser and more complicated than a lot of other associations. Recently people have been making this false assertion that implies you can, for instance, tell everything you need to know about Catholics by their association with Catholicism, or even more problematically that you could, in another instance, determine what every Christian or Muslim by their association with that. But it's simply not true. I'm an outspoken, committed atheist. I associate with various religious folks though. Nominally I'm probably still "on the books" as a member of various churches that I've attended in my life that insisted that I sign things to gain entry. But obviously I'm not a member of any religion, nor is my association with atheism a good indicator that I'm plotting with other atheists.

Tebow works on Sundays. How much is he really able to attend any church? He's a professional football player, so at least one of his teammates is likely a felon. Insisting that his associations define him is tantamount to making him an ex-con.

Again, he's an annoying guy. I don't like him. But there's plenty there to be annoyed with based on what he himself explicitly does without making screwed up logical pronouncements. I'm American. There's sorts of vague associations and pronouncements one might make about Americans, and very much of those would not be true.

I agree with you but there is such as fine line in that. You can't hold every situation to the same black and white standard. If your always praying and giving thanks for every meal and then go to a restaurant, do you not pray because it would be open before all? It's what is in a persons heart and God judges the heart. He knows the motivation of a persons heart whether it is pure or evil. That's one reason i think the bible says not to judge another because how can you know the motivations of a persons heart? Most times we are blind to our own motivations, let alone someone else. The secrets of the heart, God knows.

Personally speaking, i am a christian and also straight. But, i think there is a tragedy in the church today to judge the lifestyles of others, like homosexuality for instance. While the church has been busy condemning homosexuality, adultery and fornication has been ripping it apart, leaving no stone unturned. We need to take a good long look in the mirror and examine our own hearts.

But that doesn't mean it's not interesting that non christians hold christians to such a high standard. Much more than they hold themselves to. I wonder why, if non christians know so much about how a christian is supposed to act, whats their excuse for not being one? What will God say to the unsaved on judgement day that have held his people to such high standards while they did whatever they wanted?

On the other hand the bible says all of creation is waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God. So, maybe that's why the whole world bears down harder on christians than any other. Something more is expected of us and i think that is to let Jesus shine through us and we all know Jesus is the most amazing being that ever lived. I heard a preacher say he was glad that he was a sinner because its the only way he could know Jesus. And knowing Christ is everything.

There was actually an interesting article in last month's natitional geographic that talks about Religiousity, and that strong religious inclinations may be hereditary, as were other personality traits previously believed to be learned behavior. This is interesting to me, because if this is true, it may indicate that some people are simply inclined more to be more religious than others. If that is true, your answer may be that some are 'born that way.'

That said, many people are former christians, have loved ones who are, or read the bible.



"Doing whatever we wanted" is freedom, and personally, I don't believe that a good god would put people on this earth, give us free will, and expect us to be obedient, worship one particular way and then get mad when we don't. I don't feel god is out there to Zoink people. The Christian view of god as this divine punisher whose obsessed with sin, and fretting about people misbehaving and who they sleep with seems a bit un-loving. Especially when God is perfect, knows all, sees all and hears all...

Part of Christian doctrine that I don't like is the 'fear' element. Misbehave and God will get you, or you will go to hell, be judged, or Satan will have you. Why would people be interested in a god who spends his time punishing and hurting people who don't believe one particular flavor of abrahamic creed? These don't seem the actions of a good and caring god.

I couldn't have said it better. God isn't a fear-mongerer. Free will after all is a gift from God to us. I've learned that God never superimposes his will on us. He's too much of a gentleman for that. He gives us all things to enjoy. He won't force us into something we don't want. He let's us have our way. And some people want to live for God and do his will. To choose what he wants instead of our own will. I believe they are the most happiest people on earth. Choosing God's will always brings a greater joy and blessing than having our own way.

God loves us no matter what we choose, but his choice is the better way.

Who decides what is God's choice? Who decides what is God's will? And better than what? People for centuries have used "God's will" and the bible to justify whatever they want. The bible is a broad document and can't really be proven either way to be the word of God.

Not everyone is happier being a believer either. It may personally be true for you, but for some this might not be the case. Some people suffer under the yoke of religion or religious tyranny and rules, whether it is Chrsitianity or any other religion.

If what current research suggests is true as well, some people may be biologically inclined to religious viewpoints (the religion doesn't matter, just the religiousity). If this is so, then what is 'natural' or makes a religiously inclined person 'happy might not make someone without this inclination happy. Also, it might make a case, that if hereditary inclination towards strong religious viewpoints are so, then how much really is free will and choosing to obey god, and how much is just a genetic inclination towards religious belief.

I think we're digressing though, from the original topic at hand. Which is Mr. Tebow. And whether he is a good role model or not. To this regard, I do not know enough about him to decide that personally. Overt religiousity, isn't enough to decide that. It really is a question of how Mr. Tebow behaves, and what he does that matters.

I was teasing by mentioning the closet translation, but I'd interpret that passage not to necessarily literally or always go pray in private (the link in my previous post also gives some historic and cultural context), but more loosely not to make a spectacle of your prayer, which would detract from what prayer is supposed to accomplish. LOOK AT WHAT A GOOD [religion] I AM! SO MUCH MORE HOLY THAN THOU!


I used to be a Christian, once upon a time. Plus there's lot's of Biblical references soaked into Western in culture in general (literature and idioms and so forth), and of course, lots of other Christians walking around who wear tshirts with Bible quotes and stuff. It's not that hard to know about Christianity or any other of the major religions without making extra special effort for scrutiny. Not that not being a Christian needs any excuse.

And to try to bring this back around to topic (and where I drift into a more general assertion than direct reply to you, just fyi, Zennia )...

I don't hold Christians to higher standards than myself. I hold them to their own standards. Christians dominate American society. There are a number of laws on our books directly influenced by Christian moralizing rather than secular logic. Gays can't marry but women wear pants and men shave? Jesus preached giving to the poor 'til it hurts, but megachurches are a thing now and the noticeably religious conservative right are the traditional force against social welfare programs?

People who moralize on a public stage deserve to be scrutinized closely. Why do I make fun of Republican politicians caught with male hookers (or the ones with multiple marriages and divorces), more so than Democratic ones? They stake their careers on Family Values and Good Christian Morals in the first place, values they'd love to force on everyone. There's being human and thus unable to live up to an ideal, and then there's...that.

Has Tebow done anything like that? Not that I know of. He even has a charity foundation (whose website drips with God talk, but that's just an issue of my own personal preference). For some reason he's gotten attention for his prayer on the field, even though (as shown upthread) he's hardly the first or only. Does he "moralize" on the public stage? Not in the way a politician would, so far as I can tell, but he does have influence and does proselytize. To someone Christian, I can see how he might be considered a good role model: good ol' American boy, plays football, god-fearing, spreads the good word...

To someone like me, I can't help but roll my eyes because, oh, he's only the 20 billionth person to be 'openly' Christian in this country (i.e. there really needs to be another role model for Christianity?) and the best thing he can pray for is football? I don't care if he's asking for a safe game rather than scores, it's still a trite waste of basic decency. Dear God, I know there are people suffering in the world, but we're all about to voluntarily risk our healths to play this billion dollar game, so could you cast some of your care this way for now? Would Jesus approve of the spectacle and expense of football when there are starving people out there? I suspect not.

As someone fairly liberal who supports gay rights, I'd be willing to say he makes a bad role model from that point of view. He chose to be in a Focus on the Family commercial (an organization I consider deplorable and actively harmful); he refuses to be in a "It Gets Better" video. He's just another superficial Bible-beater who doesn't truly consider what Jesus preached when he could follow the bigotry of Paul and the egoism of American evangelism, and we already have enough of those as public figures. That's not to say he's a bad guy or does no good for society. I consider more of a null than good or bad.

Damn I hear about him everywhere.