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Mad Poster
#76 Old 21st Jan 2009 at 4:53 AM
*sigh* I wish there was a cure for everything. Then we would never have to worry about any of this.
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Field Researcher
#77 Old 21st Jan 2009 at 5:11 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Safyre420
...any lethal injection done to a death row inmate is murder and those that performed it should be held accountable for murder.

I wish that were true. Not everyone is for capital punishment.
As it has been obviously stated, someone who wants to commit suicide is not right in the head for whatever reason. Depression probably being the big one. If someone wants to commit suicide, let it be by their own hands, as they are not in a state of mind to ask someone to help them kill themselves with a clear head.

I have been through situations where I have seen family members slowly dying a painful death. It hurts everyone, a lot. But to euthanize them for the convenience of everyone just seems wrong to me. "Pulling the plug" as it is commonly said, is a completely different situation with different repercussions.
Theorist
#78 Old 21st Jan 2009 at 1:18 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Safyre420
Going by that, any lethal injection done to a death row inmate is murder and those that performed it should be held accountable for murder.


No, that is legally allowed in some states. If it were done in a state that did not authorize the use of capital punishment, then yes, they should be held accountable for murder, because it was an unlawful killing. However, in the states where inmates are executed, it is legal to do so, as the most severe form of punishment. It is not murder, nor is a soldier killing another soldier on the field of battle. However, I think you knew that already, so I am not sure why you would bother stating this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obama on ABC's This Week, discussing Obamacare
What it's saying is, is that we're not going to have other people carrying your burdens for you anymore
umm...Isn't having other people carry your medical burden exactly what national health care is?
Lab Assistant
#79 Old 21st Jan 2009 at 5:11 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Safyre420
What if someone that is paralyzed from the neck down, can't commit suicide themselves and wants to die? I think they should be allowed the option of assisted suicide as they can't do it themselves.


Good point. I guess I haven't quite been convinced completely either way. It's a tough subject.

Doctors take an oath to do no harm. I can't help but find it unsettling that doctors could easily influence a patient to choose death. If your own doctor (the only person who you may feel could possibly help you), told you that there was nothing but suffering ahead, then how could you hold any hope for yourself? There could be misdiagnosis, organ harvesting, doctor influence to save on time and resources, etc.

I am curious to know how this pans out in places where it is already legal. Has their health quality dropped?
Do doctors still put forth their best effort in saving a life, and promoting a desire to live?
Could insurance companies pressure hospitals to influence suicide to save money?
Are distraught family members bringing law suits against doctors and hospitals?

It would probably be easier to decide if we actually had the proposed law to judge from. I can understand there being a situation where a person would want to die, but giving doctors a license to kill makes me very uncomfortable. It is too easy for someone to decide that a life isn't worth living, when they don't have to endure in that person's shoes.

"They can jump, and land, and have no natural predators. Unless, of course, you count me!" *SH-BOOF!* - The Maxx
Field Researcher
#80 Old 21st Jan 2009 at 9:50 PM
Quote: Originally posted by davious
Then they can starve themselves to death.


Are you honestly saying you think someone should have suffer more if they don't want to live?

Last I read, it can take upwards of 14 days to starve to death... not to mention being an excrutiatingly painful way to expire... someone paralyzed would be under care that would, in fact, prevent suicide...

ETA:

Quote: Originally posted by davious
Quote: Originally posted by Safyre420
Going by that, any lethal injection done to a death row inmate is murder and those that performed it should be held accountable for murder.


No, that is legally allowed in some states. If it were done in a state that did not authorize the use of capital punishment, then yes, they should be held accountable for murder, because it was an unlawful killing. However, in the states where inmates are executed, it is legal to do so, as the most severe form of punishment. It is not murder, nor is a soldier killing another soldier on the field of battle. However, I think you knew that already, so I am not sure why you would bother stating this...


That's what people are debating here... whether or not it should be legal to allow for AS. Some of us feel it should be legal.

Peace

I am not bigoted for race, gender, sexual orientation, nationality, or age... I do, however, have a big problem with stupidity, and stupidity knows no boundaries.
Banned
#81 Old 21st Jan 2009 at 10:11 PM
Quote: Originally posted by davious
No, that is legally allowed in some states. If it were done in a state that did not authorize the use of capital punishment, then yes, they should be held accountable for murder, because it was an unlawful killing. However, in the states where inmates are executed, it is legal to do so, as the most severe form of punishment. It is not murder, nor is a soldier killing another soldier on the field of battle. However, I think you knew that already, so I am not sure why you would bother stating this...


I stated it because no matter what you call it, it's murder. As how you said assisted suicide is homicide, lethal injections and the like for death row inmates is murder.
Test Subject
#82 Old 27th Jan 2009 at 7:18 AM
This is a good topic, and such a tough one. So many of you have touched me with your stories for so many reasons. I don't want to name names, simply because I would invariably leave somebody out. I have very mixed feelings about this subject. On one hand, I suffered clinical depression for several years. I attempted suicide twice. I died once but was revived. (Never saw any bright light, angelic choirs, etc., either, but that's a different story for a different time.)

At the time it happened, I was so thoroughly angry, and it made me feel like the biggest failure of all. "Gee, I can't even die right." Now, though, I have recovered. I still battle with minor bouts of depression at times, but it is nothing like it was then, and nobody really knows why. I am so glad and so grateful it didn't end when I tried to make it end. Having said that, I can't tell you how I'd feel if I was still as deeply in the throes of that depression as I was then. I can't even tell you if I'd be alive or not. I understand that tunnel vision, because I've had it. If you haven't had it, I'm sorry to say, there's no way you can understand, and being judgmental of it is simply being destructive toward those who are suffering.

Mental illness takes so many forms. Voluntary euthanasia for the mentally ill would be a huge minefield, because people suffering mental illness can be very, very susceptible to suggestion and manipulation. It would be nearly impossible to determine whether that person wanted to die of their own volition or whether some greedy or callous relative, friend, or unscrupulous therapist was pushing them toward it. People get away with that sort of abuse already and convince people to take their own lives. Is it a good idea to pass a law that would make taking advantage of the mentally ill even easier?

How about aging individuals with several chronic, painful conditions that require lots of care from those around them? My father right now is slowly losing all motor function to a degenerative brain condition of the cerebellum. He constantly talks about how much of a burden he feels like to the rest of us. While he isn't currently in a lot of pain, this condition is incurable, and he will one day die from it, but only after losing all of his voluntary muscle control, including bladder, which I know he will find utterly mortifying.

I love my Dad and support him 100% in whatever he decides. What if I were a less scrupulous sort? It wouldn't be at all difficult to convince my father that he and the rest of us would be better off if he killed himself. (It almost makes me cry just thinking about doing that, but there are people out there who are just that evil.) He is one of the least selfish people I've ever known. If V.E. were legal, he would go to a doctor in a heartbeat and ask that doctor to end his life should Mom or I make him feel like he is more of a burden than we can handle. There are a lot of unscrupulous people who would take advantage of their elderly or very ill relatives and even justify it in their own minds. "Well, he was in pain/going to die anyway." Davious made another good point. It would make outright murder easier, too, and then later forge anything necessary to make it look like an V.E.

How about the doctors who decided to assist? They take an oath to do no harm when they become doctors. While you might be able to make a successful argument to some extent that sometimes taking a life could do more good than harm to the person whose life is ending, you cannot argue that it's not at all harmful. This is a direct violation of one of the most sacred oaths in modern society. How would such a thing affect them psychologically in the long run? The power to take a life is a heady thing. It stands to reason that some doctors would grow addicted to having it, which could lead to horrendous abuses.

There have already been several well publicized cases of overworked nurses murdering patients and getting away with it, sometimes for years, before ever being caught. In allowing V.E., you create the perfect niche for the would be serial murderer, in the same way that pedophiles are often drawn toward professions that put them in close contact with children. Such wolves in sheep clothing could also give people treatments that would make them more prone to wishing to die, or even induce terminal conditions through poisoning, negative drug interactions, botched surgeries and the like. Somebody else mentioned the organ harvester wanting to make some cash on the side in the black market. Lots of room for abuse.

I've also lost several loved ones and family members to suicide. No matter the reason, unless you've directly experienced this, you cannot imagine the guilt and pain of those left behind, particularly in a situation of depression. In one instance, a dear friend of the family developed inexplicable, excruciating pain that started at the soles of her feet and gradually, over a period of two years, spread up to her waist. She said it felt like being boiled alive, and pain killers wouldn't touch it, not even the strongest opiates.

She underwent every test known to medicine at the time and consulted with a wide variety of naturopaths and alternative healers as well. None of them had any answers for her. One doctor very callously told her it was all in her head and to stop being a hypochondriac. A week after that, she shot herself, saying in her suicide note that she simply could not bear the pain one more day. Over ten years after the fact, her husband still becomes extremely ill with pneumonia every anniversary of her death, within a few days give or take. It takes him at least two months to recover his health each time. He has not recovered from the emotional trauma of the suicide, even though he completely understood her reasoning and felt all the sympathy in the world. He says some days, the guilt of not being able to help her is still overwhelming.

Would it have been better for him and easier for him if she had the option of V.E.? That is really difficult to say. I do think that if it were allowed, there would also be counseling programs and outreach through hospices to help families come to terms with their loved ones' decisions. It would very likely not be an out of the blue decision leaving the family flat footed and unable to cope. Was she a selfish coward for taking her own life? Unless we can walk in her shoes, who are we to judge? How much can one human take before breaking? Just because one has a higher pain threshold, does that make him braver than one who can't take as much? What does it mean to break?

Now for the other side of the coin. I've seen loved ones waste away in horrible pain from cancer, emphysema, antibiotic resistant tuberculosis, and AIDS, wanting to die and afraid to kill themselves because of the effect it would have on their families. Such unimaginable suffering, and it broke my heart to think that their primary reason for choosing not to die was to spare the rest of us further pain. I often wished for the option for them if they wanted it, and many of them indicated that if such things were available along with emotional and psychological support for the families, they'd take it.

I've seen loved ones waste away in the throes of Alzheimer's, becoming at first pale parodies of who they once were, then raving strangers, and lastly listless, drooling people in total catatonia. I was a first responder to the suicide by gun of a man who had Alzheimer's bad enough to have papered every square inch of his house with post-it notes, containing messages like, "My brother's name is John." "My daughter has blue eyes."

There were two problems. He shot himself while a family member was there, and he didn't succeed right away, so she had to watch him die with a hole in his head. He knew he wanted to die, but he didn't have enough mental faculty to know not to do it with her there. Would V.E. have given him a better option, something less traumatizing to his family? Perhaps. It took everything I had not to break down at the sight of the post-its, even before I got to him. I cannot imagine what it had to be like for her. It's something that will haunt me for the rest of my life, and the experience gave me night terrors for nearly a year. I still can't see a post-it note without thinking of them. Yes, suicide has far reaching consequences, sometimes even for those only peripherally involved, and even when the reason is totally understandable.

I just think I've been too much in the thick of a wide variety of situations to be able to give any sort of easy, pat answer, that "Yes, it should be allowed, no matter what" or "No, it should never be allowed, no matter what". I can see both sides and some of the shades of gray in the middle, and I am not dogmatic enough to feel as though I have the answer or to believe there even is one right answer.

I do think that not allowing it definitely prolongs suffering, in so many cases. I think allowing it would lead to far more abuses than people think it could. Neither solution is a perfect one, and neither comes out so far ahead of the other in my eyes as to make it an obvious choice. Death is a messy business. Living is even messier.
Mad Poster
#83 Old 27th Jan 2009 at 8:46 AM
Very touching, MollyPog! I'm so sorry about all your tragedies. But I totally understand why people would want to die and only those who are in their shoes can truly understand.

But unfortunately there are corrupt people in this world who will abuse this, such as my ex's mother who plotted with her sister to kill their mother who was very ill and was dying and they didn't want to have to take care of her. But their mother naturally died a week later so their chance to kill her never came to fruition (thankfully). That's just an example of how true it is that people can be so heartless. Or maybe I'm just too compassionate.
#84 Old 27th Jan 2009 at 12:23 PM
Did any Brits see "A Short Trip To Switzerland" the other night? A British doctor diagnosed with a terminal illness went to a clinic in Switzerland for assisted suicide, the BBC then made this drama about it. Well acted and handled sensitively, I think it's still on BBC iPlayer so if anyone is interested it's worth the watch (you don't need to download it on to iTunes, it's like YouTube but purely for BBC programs).
Scholar
#85 Old 27th Jan 2009 at 11:45 PM
Quote: Originally posted by MentalSarcasm
I think it's still on BBC iPlayer so if anyone is interested it's worth the watch (you don't need to download it on to iTunes, it's like YouTube but purely for BBC programs).

Yes, and only available to residents of the UK. Which sucks...we Aussies have the Union Jack on our flag, and Her Majesty on our money...so why can't we have BBC shows on our internet?!
Inventor
#86 Old 28th Jan 2009 at 3:19 AM
Mollypog,

Thank you for sharing your stories with us. You make many good points.

To various people - I don't think that anyone has the right to judge the actions of a suicide as selfish. Yes, it causes immeasurable hurt to the loved ones left behind but the hurt of living is also sometimes too great to bear, especially when there is no hope of improvement. Sometimes, perhaps it is just as selfish to keep someone alive in great pain?

The last time I posted in this thread, my CRPS appeared to be starting to involve my hands. Just two weeks later my hand looks like this and my left is beginning to go the same way. My legs now look like this. Keep in mind that I'm incredibly thin - those knees are not much smaller than my waist.

On Friday, my doctor almost cried with me as he told me that I'd exhausted all treatment options. That if things deteriorate further, there's nothing that can be done unless I want to be in hospital and out of my brain on high doses of opiates. I am in so much pain now that I no longer sleep unless I collapse. Between pain, exhaustion and drugs, I hallucinate. If my condition deteriorates, I don't want to live with it, nor do I want my family to live with it. While there is still some vague sort of hope I will battle on but when hope is lost, it's time to admit that. And see - if it does come to that point, I will need help. Even now it is a struggle to do anything with my hands - I can use a couple of fingers on my left hand and that's about it. Would I ask - if I had to, I would. Would my family help me? Yes, I think so.

Please call me Laura
"The gene pool needs more chlorine."
My Site
Top Secret Researcher
#87 Old 28th Jan 2009 at 3:39 AM
Oh, Laura. I don't know what to say except that I'm so sorry. It's hard for me to imagine anything more unbelievably awful. And you seem to handle it with as much grace and dignity as is humanly possible. I wouldn't be able to come close, I'm sure.

Your story and Mollypog's illustrate the complexity of this issue, unfortunately.

Test Subject
#88 Old 28th Jan 2009 at 3:55 AM
Frankie, that is a truly chilling story about your ex's mother and the mother's sister. Sadly, it is exactly the sort of thing that would become much more common if V.E. were legalized. As far as being too compassionate, I'm not sure there is such a thing, but I know one can easily have too little compassion. If there is a side on which to err, err in excess.

Laura, I did some reading about your condition, since I had never heard of it before. I honestly can't imagine how painful and frightening that must be for you. As Daisie said, you seem to be handling it with grace and dignity. I do think as long as there is hope, holding on is worth it, considering remission is possible and sometimes seems to happen for reasons the doctors can't fully explain. Your body has its own sort of wisdom. I think you'll know what to do and when to do it should the time come.

Thank you for sharing your story, because I think hearing about a situation from somebody who is dealing with it has a lot more impact than hearing of hypothetical situations. You are helping people by sharing your pictures and stories, and you are showing firsthand that there are no pat answers in a life or death decision. I'll be keeping you in my thoughts.
Inventor
#89 Old 28th Jan 2009 at 7:50 AM
Daisie and Mollypog - thank you for your kind words. Mollypog - my only hope is for a new method of management. I've had this since I was 14. I am now 24, have only got worse and now have such severe complications that even if someone could wave a wand and make the CRPS disappear tomorrow, my body would never recover.

Please call me Laura
"The gene pool needs more chlorine."
My Site
#90 Old 28th Jan 2009 at 6:18 PM
O.K, Laura, you know how to make a teenager girl CRY.
All I can say is a girl one year younger than me found out late last year that her Mum didn't have more than 2 years left.
Just think about what you worrying about right now.
On a happier note, it is known that some people get through long-lasting/death threatening illnesses. It really depends on the situation.
By the way guys, it doesn't help reading these sad stories whilst listening to "How I go" and "View From Heaven" by YellowCard
#91 Old 28th Jan 2009 at 11:49 PM
Those people saying it could be taken advantage of by people that just want to bump off inconvenient family members really need to read up on the process used by Dignitas, the assisted suicide charity in Switzerland. The process is prolonged and is designed to weed out such cases, as well as people that are obviously not ready and those that are mentally ill.

The person that is ill meets several people from Dignitas and an independant doctor for a private consultation (during which presumably they're asked about their condition, their family, how they are coping so far etc etc). The doctor assesses the evidence provided by the sufferer (I'm assuming things like medical records and test results confirming the diagnosis) and they meet on two separate occasions with a time gap between them.

A legally admissable proof is drawn up stating that the person wishes to die which is counter signed by independant witnesses (whether they just nab people off the street or have a random list of volunteers that they contact and ask to come in on the day is not specified), if the person is physically unable to sign a document then a video is made where they are asked to confirm their identity, that they wish to die and this wish is their own choice without any coercion.

A few minutes before they are given the drugs they are asked to confirm that they know the medication will definitely kill them, and they are asked several times if they are sure they want to continue or leave and consider it further. If at this point they are certain they wish to end their life then they are given the drugs and ingest them then and there.

The big thing is that out of the group that get through the preliminary stages and are told they can return to the clinic for the drugs when they are ready, 70% never go back. They just want the knowledge that if things become unbearable they could end it if they want, for some that is the greatest comfort.
Mad Poster
#92 Old 29th Jan 2009 at 7:59 AM
MentalSarcasm, wow, that is very intense! I could never volunteer to help someone with suicide even though I may approve of the process if it's what the person really wants. I just couldn't be the one to do that. Do they get people who are not emotional and compassionate? Because an emotional and compassionate person may end up reconsidering helping the patient with suicide. It may just too be difficult for them to deal.
#93 Old 29th Jan 2009 at 9:54 AM
I think I'd do it. Their choice after all, and I hope that if I ended up with MND someone would have the compassion to witness a document saying that I am clearly mental capable of making a decision even if I can barely hold a pen and can't walk. My Mum recently told me that if she was diagnosed with something like MND or Alzheimers then she too would go to Switzerland and ask for help, because she wouldn't want mine or my siblings last memories of her to be of a woman that was a dribbling wreck of her former self.

I think your idea of compassion is different to mine. Signing a document that helps someone who is sick and in a lot of pain take another step towards ending that suffering does not bother me.

But then I'm also pro-abortion and I don't have a particular religion so maybe I'm just a bit heartless
Test Subject
#94 Old 30th Jan 2009 at 5:30 AM
Laura, I'm just so sorry you're having to go through that and that it has been such a long fight for you. I truly hope there's a treatment option out there that can give you some relief without doping you to the heavens on pain killers, an option you seem not to want. I can't blame you for that. Not feeling pain is one thing, but if it's at the expense of being who you are, it's hard to say, "Yes, do that for me."

MentalSarcasm, it does sound like they take precautions at Dignitas, but none of what you said they do would weed out people going there just to satisfy their family members who convinced them that they are a burden. I'm not sure there is a way to insure that won't happen with V.A., which is why the process deserves such close scrutiny and deliberation. I'm not morally or ethically against a person wanting the right to take their own life with assistance because of suffering. I am very much against others being given an easy way to manipulate someone in pain to their own ends. What sort of oversight is needed and how that would be implemented are crucial components of the issue of legalization.
Instructor
#95 Old 30th Jan 2009 at 6:01 AM
I'm sorry if this writing I want to write, there's a religion things, my religion believe.

I'm a Buddhist, Buddhism.

In Buddhism we believe a reincarnation. And the most biggest impact where you will reincarnate to be, is the mind condition when you die.

If your mind is so happy, satisfy and peace, I can say that you may be will reborn in heaven. Most of a kind/good people who live in simple happiness live can die happy and peace.

But if you die with a bad mind like angry, unacceptable to die because someone killing you, have a bad/hatred mind, lust/passioned with things in mind, die in painful like heavy sick or accident, etc. You will reincarnated just like what you thinking when die, a bad thinking will make you reborn so much suffering, like you will be born as a ghost (wandering ghost) or even hell.

So I believe if people dying, we must help him to make him calm, happy and peace in mind. Giving a morphine or some injection which can make him to calm, happy and peace is a good and kind thing.

But if you kill him, like he suppose to be live, but you give him an injection that can lead him to die, is another story. A bad karma.

Sorry if I write about religion thing.

I just want to tell you, that what I will do and believe to help people if I encounter those kind of situatuion. Like if my relative or friend dying in front of me, I will said something to make him happy, calm and peace.

I'm not a doctor, so I do not know anything about injection and morphine. I will do not do it. Except if my relative or friend dying in hospital and there's no hope again. I will ask the doctor to give him a morphine and anything to make him calm, happy, peace and forgeting his suffering.

About helping people to suicide, is a bad karma.
Mad Poster
#96 Old 30th Jan 2009 at 7:32 AM
Quote: Originally posted by MentalSarcasm
I think I'd do it. Their choice after all, and I hope that if I ended up with MND someone would have the compassion to witness a document saying that I am clearly mental capable of making a decision even if I can barely hold a pen and can't walk. My Mum recently told me that if she was diagnosed with something like MND or Alzheimers then she too would go to Switzerland and ask for help, because she wouldn't want mine or my siblings last memories of her to be of a woman that was a dribbling wreck of her former self.

I think your idea of compassion is different to mine. Signing a document that helps someone who is sick and in a lot of pain take another step towards ending that suffering does not bother me.

But then I'm also pro-abortion and I don't have a particular religion so maybe I'm just a bit heartless


It doesn't mean you are heartless if you would volunteer. I am not religious at all, I'm Agnostic. But I'm just going by the fact that I have a different kind of compassion than others do. I would definitely want their wish to die and be free from pain to be granted, no doubt about that. I was just saying that I can't be the one to grant them that. I don't have it in me to do that, I lack the bravery for it. I'm just not fit for a volunteer.
 
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