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Mad Poster
Original Poster
#1 Old 3rd Mar 2013 at 1:59 PM Last edited by simmer22 : 3rd Mar 2013 at 2:09 PM.
Default How to link separate hairs (or unlink them for randomness)?
I'm in the process of making fully custom baby hairs that are changeable ingame and recolorable (like hairs for other ages). Picture here --> http://i47.tinypic.com/3342hkp.jpg

My problem is that they grow to toddlers missing the back of their head.

So I was wondering if there is a way to link one hair to a set of hairs (preferably maxis hairs), pretty much the way one would link a toddler maxis conversion to the existing hair so they grow up with the correct hair.

I tried familying, but I have a feeling I'm not removing the correct resources from the file. I tried binning using Cat's binner, removing everything but the toddler hair and changing this to baby. That's when the back of the head disappears when they grow up.

I've also tried making a custom hair and cloning (and changing) resources to make an extra hair for babies, without removing the other ages, but that had similar results.

So...

I would want the baby to get a random baby hair (they already do), and when they grow to toddlers they get a 'linked' hair, or they get a new random hair - instead of the missing scalp. Either one would be nice, and equally useful.

I really hope this is possible, as I'd love to have several different hairs for babies while at the same time the toddlers keep their heads.

I would also like to know if it is possible to change thumbnails for hairs (as the baby thumbnails are blank by default). I've already tried the accessory thumbnail tutorial, but unsuccessfully.

I'm thankful for any suggestions
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Doing all the things, and *mostly* not failing.
retired moderator
#2 Old 6th Mar 2013 at 12:09 AM
It should definitely be possible. I think familyifying is the way to do it. Look at the familified versions of the Melodie9 hairs. (I'd link you but my internet is failing me, I think the creator was Layana or something?) You might also want to consider decustomizing, sometimes that helps.

Don't bother with Cat's tool, while super helpful for normal stuff, this is anything but normal. You are going to need the full editing power of SimPE to do something weird like this. Keep us posted! If that stuff doesn't seem to help, let me take a look at them, I might be able to track it all down and link it up correctly thanks to those skins I did a while back.
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#3 Old 6th Mar 2013 at 11:04 PM
I already tried familying them (I had Melodie's and Layana's files in mind), but there are about a ton of different versions of each hair, and I can't seem to find the right toddler property set resources for it. I tried a random one, one of those that seems to be enabled ingame (there are several hidden ones, linked to different hairs), but still no luck. I also tried to family them with some random custom hair, which also did not work.

I also tried decustomizing, and the todders were still born with the back of the head missing.

I only binned the hairs with Cat's tool, because it also removes the unnecessary files for other ages (I also tried keeping the files, still with the same result). I first tried to remove those manually, but maxis hairs with different hairs for different ages behave very strange, so the 3DIR that seems to have the age info for YA has the mesh info for toddler, and it only gets weirder from there. I know how to bin and how to family hairs manually, but that doesn't help when the resources are so messed up. There's something weird going on between the infant and toddler hair no matter what I've tried.
When I try to delete the unnecessary 3DIR resources after binning (because I have a feeling they're making a mess), I always end up deleting at least one important file, even if it doesn't seem to be linked to the parts I want to keep.

I kept wondering if it's possible to add the infant age to a hair with all ages included, but I tried that too (by cloning and fixing the baby resources so they're stand-alone but still linked to the hair file), and still the missing back head for toddlers.

I have a feeling I'm missing something important here...
Doing all the things, and *mostly* not failing.
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#4 Old 7th Mar 2013 at 2:19 AM
I'm confused about not finding the correct toddler property resource, can you post a screenshot of your options?

Deleting the wrong 3DIR will definitely mess things up, there are usually one or two that don't seem to pertain to anything, but they need to be there. The way to know which ones to delete are based on their Instance number. If you are deleting unneeded ages, then use the property set to find the instance number, they are paired that way. Don't delete the ones that don't have property sets to begin with.

How did you create the infant hair originally? By creating toddler hair and then aging it down? That might be part of it, like some resource is still set for toddlers or something strange like that. It might be that the hair is expecting to find a child's hair next and can't handle it being a toddler hair again. When I ran into missing heads with my set it was usually because the hair color was set incorrectly, or the age or gender was wrong and the game couldn't find a file that worked. With regular meshes a missing mesh is usually caused by a break between the texture and the mesh, but since the toddler hairs initially worked, I don't think that's it.

Hmm... I'll keep thinking.
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#5 Old 7th Mar 2013 at 3:24 PM
The toddler hairs are linked to other hairs for other ages (none match the toddler hairs), so there are 10-15 propertyfiles for each of them. There's only one showing in Bodyshop/CAS, however. That's the ones I'm having troubles finding.

Quote: Originally posted by Phaenoh
How did you create the infant hair originally? By creating toddler hair and then aging it down?


That's how I made them, and I think that might be part of the problem. I've tried things like changing names, cloning and changing resources so they're separate from the toddler versions, and so on - but still the same.

I just wish there was some file to work from, but the only hair files are the skintones, and I have a feeling those will create their own set of problems.
Doing all the things, and *mostly* not failing.
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#6 Old 7th Mar 2013 at 4:14 PM
Would you mind posting up one infant hair color and the toddler hair it is supposed to link to? I can take a look at it and maybe see something else to try.
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#7 Old 7th Mar 2013 at 6:06 PM
It's really the same for me which hair it links to, as long as the toddlers grow up with hair. I would much prefer it if the toddlers grow up with a random hair, but if that's impossible, then one of the basegame hairs will do.

Here are the files. Two versions, one unbinned with nothing removed, the other binned with unneccessary files removed with Cat's tool. It's the same file for the recolors, so if you want to test ingame, don't put both in at once.
Doing all the things, and *mostly* not failing.
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#8 Old 8th Mar 2013 at 2:51 AM
Thanks, I've got them and I'll take a look and report back as soon as I've got a spare moment. With the uploads back on I've got my hands full! >.<
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#9 Old 8th Mar 2013 at 11:54 AM
Thanks
I should probably say that to test them ingame you need a mod that enables 'change appearance' for babies. I use the insimenator mod, but I'm pretty sure there are others too. Would probably be nice with a separate mod or some such, but modding objects go far beyond my skills.
Doing all the things, and *mostly* not failing.
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#10 Old 8th Mar 2013 at 4:46 PM
Oh, thanks for mentioning that. I don't think I have such a mod. Insimenator has always scared me because of its complexity, which pieces will I need and where is the current place to get them?
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#11 Old 8th Mar 2013 at 7:24 PM
Which pieces of the mod?

With the insimenator mod any sim can choose "change appearance" for the baby - either with the blue part of the main item (the one that looks like the biostation) or the one that looks like a time glass.
The simblender or the mod that is a variation of the imsimenator (simmodder or some such) might have the same function. It would probably be nice to have an independent mod, though.
Doing all the things, and *mostly* not failing.
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#12 Old 9th Mar 2013 at 12:17 AM
I thought there were flavor packs...? I know very little about insimenator. :facepalm: So, just the main base package would be enough for this?

Oh! I think I might have simblender, I will check on that.
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#13 Old 9th Mar 2013 at 12:45 PM Last edited by simmer22 : 9th Mar 2013 at 12:55 PM.
You're probably thinking about inteen. They're not the same. I've got "InSIMenator (UV) v2.9 SIM Edition" - it's just one file (but comes in 3 editions, depending on how you want it to work - SIM, DEST and OBJ), it's updated for M&G, though it's an unsupported mod. There's a supported, probably slightly changed version under the name simmanipulator. I've not tried it, though.

The simblender might work too. I know it has 'change appearance', but I can't quite remember how it works (if the sim has to click on it, or if any sim can click for any sim). I'm so used to the insimenator that even though I've got the simblender I hardly ever use it.
Doing all the things, and *mostly* not failing.
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#14 Old 9th Mar 2013 at 3:35 PM
Ah yes! That's the one. Thank you for clearing that up and giving me a link. Arg, I swear usually I'm more prompt with helping.
Doing all the things, and *mostly* not failing.
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#15 Old 9th Mar 2013 at 6:26 PM
Ok, I've had a chance to peek at the files, but haven't gotten them in game yet but I noticed a few things.
  • The genetic line isn't set for anything, its not likely to be the cause of the problem, but it can't hurt to set it.
  • Try decustomizing the baby hair. Zeroing out the creator line and some other stuff. Decustomized files always seem to play nicer. The game won't autopick something that isn't decustomized, but this was likely to be a reason for why the babies would be born without hair in the first place, which you said is working, so this is less likely to be your problem.
  • One of your textures are completely blank - and it looks to be the one that is set for the toddler hair group! This could just be a simple case of a transparent texture.
  • I'm also only seeing 6 Property Sets, it looks like you cannibalized the toddler one for the infant, you need to copy instead of replacing. You will also need matching Binary Indexes and Material Definitions. When growing up, the game looks for the next hair in the set, and there isn't one, so no back of the head. I bet if you grew up one of those toddlers to a child they would get their hair back, or if you did a Change Appearance on one of the toddlers it would come back as well. If that's the case, then this is definitively what's wrong. (Test that before going down this path)

I'd try putting the texture back in first and testing that, and if that fixes it, fantastic, if not, try adding back in the toddler property set and groups - that one is much more indepth and prone to mistakes so it's its own can of worms. Let me know if any of that works.
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#16 Old 9th Mar 2013 at 7:48 PM Last edited by simmer22 : 9th Mar 2013 at 8:29 PM.
I noticed the genetic line, though since I wasn't sure what it was for I left it alone. Doesn't seem to make a difference, as it is 2 on some hairs and 0 on others, with no difference.

Ii tried decustomizing the hairs, but it made no difference. It might work if I manage to erradicate the toddler group entirely, though.

The texture that is blank is for the scalp, and is currently meant to be blank (because converting the toddler scalp to infant is possible but not very easy - I used Bloom's hairs from over at Insim for my tinkering, and those have an extra alpha layer).

I tried copying those files and make them separate from the toddler files, but was not very successful in it. Do you have a quick explanation, or perhaps a tutorial on how to do it properly? I've never done this before, so I might have messed up somewhere. I'm pretty lost at how to clone and change he binary index and the propert set. And which ones do I have to change in the 3DIR? And which instance number would it be safe to give the baby hair? Maybe 8? Or do they happen to have their own?

They get their heads back when they grow to child, and it seems the game chooses a random hair for them.
I sort of want the hairs to behave as if they're not part of a set, so the game chooses either a random hair or just any linked maxis hair. No idea if it's possible or not, but it would have been the best way.

And do you by any chance know if it's possible to make custom thumbnails for hairs? I've already managed it for accessories (which was surprisingly easy), but wasn't much successful with the hairs.
Doing all the things, and *mostly* not failing.
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#17 Old 10th Mar 2013 at 5:31 PM
Yeah, late last night I realized that the blank baby hair was likely supposed to be blank, and even if it wasn't, it's coloring hair, not scalp. Though, maybe the Skin SkinMaterial line in the SHPE isn't set correctly to do that, but if you pulled it from a working file, that's not likely to be the case.

I honesty don't know what to set the some of the numbers for in the binary index because you are pioneering stuff here. I can get everything cloned and copied and linked properly for you (would take me less time than explaining it and I'm sure I'd forget something, but afterwards I'll be sure to let you know what I did in case you need to do it again). I'll post them up and then you can try different best guesses for some of the numbers.

As for making it random again, yeah, I think if we purposely break the set properly it will work, so I'll look into doing that at the same time. I think you were on the right track by removing the other resources, but it prolly got messed up somewhere. I think the first step is making the full set work again.

I've only done custom thumbnails for lots. I've seen the tutorial for accessories but haven't tried it myself. I vaguely recall either Mootilda or MogHughson having a tutorial about custom cameras to make custom thumbnails. You might try that.
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#18 Old 10th Mar 2013 at 7:46 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Phaenoh
I can get everything cloned and copied and linked properly for you (would take me less time than explaining it and I'm sure I'd forget something, but afterwards I'll be sure to let you know what I did in case you need to do it again). I'll post them up and then you can try different best guesses for some of the numbers.


That would be very helpful, thanks!

Quote: Originally posted by Phaenoh
As for making it random again, yeah, I think if we purposely break the set properly it will work, so I'll look into doing that at the same time. I think you were on the right track by removing the other resources, but it prolly got messed up somewhere. I think the first step is making the full set work again.


My thought, too. If it's properly put together and then decustomized, it might work the intended way.

As for the thumbnails, I think I'll focus on sorting out that problem once I've got working files.
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#19 Old 13th Mar 2013 at 11:07 PM Last edited by simmer22 : 13th Mar 2013 at 11:54 PM.
So I tried the cloning thing - and now the hair shows up both for babies and for toddlers. However, the toddlers still get the missing back head, even if the hair is in the menu. When the hair is put on the toddler, it shows up fine.

I have no ideas on how to fix it now...

Files here
Doing all the things, and *mostly* not failing.
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#20 Old 14th Mar 2013 at 5:59 AM
I feel bad that I keep taking so long to get back to you. >.<

I've had a look at your latest files. The baby hair mesh looks fine, and the recolor package doesn't seem to have anything wrong with it to me. Let me get this straight, when an infant with hair grows up, they continue to have hair, but they are missing their scalp. The menu for the infants and toddlers shows the hair appropriately. Doing a change appearance on the toddler puts their scalp back.

If that's all true, my best suggestion is to manually Fix TGI on every resource in the recolor that has the button and Fix Integrity on the package 2 or 3 times, saving in between. Sometimes that's all it takes to fix something.

Could you post an image of what the hair menu looks like and what the toddlers with missing scalps look like? I've pretty much given up trying to get your files into my game and images could help me understand some of the things going on.

I've attached a file that should only be infant hair, it *should* revert to random toddler hair at grow up. Its an edit of the latest one you put up, so see if it still behaves as well as that one did.
Attached files:
File Type: rar  14af4bc0_hairtry.rar (101.0 KB, 16 downloads) - View custom content
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#21 Old 14th Mar 2013 at 6:01 PM
Infant is born with the hair, grows up to toddler, has missing scalp. Bringing up the hair menu gives them a random hair, not the one they had.
Happens both when the baby hair is custom (put on via the menu) and binned (born with the hair).

And it still happens with the new files, I'm sorry to say.

Baby -->
Baby screen (thumbnail is blank, but that's how they show up) -->
Toddler just grown up -->
Toddler screen with the random hair she got -->
Doing all the things, and *mostly* not failing.
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#22 Old 14th Mar 2013 at 9:37 PM
And this happens with all of your test colors? Sometimes its as simple as being marked for the wrong hairtone. This is indeed perplexing. I shall have to think some more....
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#23 Old 14th Mar 2013 at 9:58 PM Last edited by simmer22 : 14th Mar 2013 at 10:25 PM.
Yes.
They're not marked for the wrong hair tone. The latest file is a blonde for sure - I changed it manually, and I know very well how to do it (before Cat's tool came along I couldn't get Theo's bin tool to work properly for SimPE, so I had to learn it. A lot more tedious, but at least I know what to check if something is making troubles). For the above hairs (the ones I started with) I used Cat's tool mostly for the simplicity, and because I wanted to remove the extra files.

Maybe I should try familying it with an EAxis hair, too. If I could only find the proper hair to family it with...

EDIT: Tried binning with the bonnet hair (the only one that seems to be free of a ton of extras), and while the toddler still miss the back of the head, they now get that hairstyle in the 'change appearance' screen.
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