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Née whiterider
retired moderator
#26 Old 13th Jun 2015 at 1:21 PM
"Christian is a complex character" unless you have literally read a textbook on domestic abuse, in which case he might actually be LESS complex than Twilight's characters...

What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact.
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Banned
#27 Old 13th Jun 2015 at 6:46 PM
Welcome to the new RB.
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#28 Old 13th Jun 2015 at 11:25 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Nysha
"Christian is a complex character" unless you have literally read a textbook on domestic abuse, in which case he might actually be LESS complex than Twilight's characters...


I've seen more complex sandwich baggies ...
Guest
#29 Old 14th Jun 2015 at 1:56 AM
I wanna buy a clue...

I read a review that said this 50 shades book was basically about male domination and S&M. Is that right? I don't understand why it is so popular... I mean, even my mother in law sent a copy of the book to my wife... what's that about? Do women like that sort of thing? When I was younger, I knew women who would show up with a black eye, but they would never leave the guy who gave it to them.

I used to get beat all the time until I was 16. Fat lips, black eyes, sprained ankles... I worked out with weights and read the hand to hand combat field manual. One of the happiest days of my life was when the people who would beat me were afraid to ever do it again. I don't understand why anyone would want to get beat.
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#30 Old 14th Jun 2015 at 2:49 AM Last edited by fairycake89 : 14th Jun 2015 at 3:27 AM.
*takes @stuart-grey to one side for a little chat*

There are some men and women (masochists or submissives) in this world who live their lives quite willingly under the control of another human being, be it male or female and these people (the masochists or submissives) prefer to be 'under' or submissive to are sadists or Dominants. Many people need to live like this in order to feel complete. Their submission completes them. They find that living under the control of another person is symbiotic and necessary for their everyday and their sexual needs. In fact sex often isn't the prevailing factor in the relationship - its about providing service to the Dominant person whom they love, nomatter what form that service may take. 50 shades overlooks the everyday service aspect of D/s totally. Some couples enjoy living in what they call a 1950s House style relationship where the Dominant force (generally a male) is the Man of the House and the woman is that stereotype Stepford wife - The ultra traditional rules fulfilling needs for both parties.

There are many flavours of a Dominant/submissive relationship - from online Domination and submission (this sort of relationship is laughed at in real Dominant and submissive circles) to real life living 24/7 in a constant role-play situation of Master and slave or Dominant and submissive - there are living and breathing communities which support and advocate the lifestyle - but the difference between this sort of lifestyle and the 50 shades version of Dominance and submission is that most Dominants (male or female) do not generally seek out someone to 'turn' into a submissive like a vampire seeks out mortals to turn, the people they hook up with are generally already in the 'lifestyle' and are looking to be dominated or to have a Master or Mistress to serve, as countless Dominant and submissive online dating sites will testify.

The reason you don't understand it stuart is simply because you're not wired that way and you've only ever been able to see the 'bad' side of BDSM - the side bad fanfic and the interwebz only want you to see It becomes 'abuse' when one party didn't sign up for being under the control of another and domestic abuse is a whole other area which has nothing to do with BDSM - Domestic abuse is bullying and violence, BDSM is consensual, controlled and at all times both parties in the relationship know where the boundaries lie.

Source? Back in the day some of my best friends were living this lifestyle and I had it explained to me countless times.
Theorist
#31 Old 14th Jun 2015 at 3:17 AM
Quote: Originally posted by stuart-grey
I read a review that said this 50 shades book was basically about male domination and S&M. Is that right? I don't understand why it is so popular... I mean, even my mother in law sent a copy of the book to my wife... what's that about? Do women like that sort of thing? When I was younger, I knew women who would show up with a black eye, but they would never leave the guy who gave it to them.

I used to get beat all the time until I was 16. Fat lips, black eyes, sprained ankles... I worked out with weights and read the hand to hand combat field manual. One of the happiest days of my life was when the people who would beat me were afraid to ever do it again. I don't understand why anyone would want to get beat.


Can't understand it either. I wouldn't say I'm a passive person, but neither agressive/violent, especially in a physical way. A (love) relationship is built on equality, IMHO. Next to that, I have no special sex things in SM and domination of either persons.

I had some beatings as a kid at an age of 12/13, although it was mostly calling names for being shy and nerdy (read: I'm wearing glasses since the age of 3). But it stopped as fast as it started, without any ''revenge''. I'm still very shy, have no self-esteem at all and no super power house, but nowadays my size (~ 1.90 m) seems me to earn some natural respect and dominance, while I've always been one of the taller people. Not that people are afraid or so.

The gorgeous Tina (TS3) and here loving family available for download here.
Scholar
#32 Old 14th Jun 2015 at 3:22 AM
Quote: Originally posted by SuicidiaParasidia
If only this fate had befallen the Twilight series. ;C


Since Fifty Shades is literally Twilight fanfiction with changed names and locations, it actually would have saved us from two abominations!

The secret ingredient is phone.
Growing up means watching my heroes turn human in front of me.
Thank you, O Mighty Doom Deity! - BL00DIEHELL
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#33 Old 14th Jun 2015 at 3:23 AM
Quote: Originally posted by stuart-grey
I read a review that said this 50 shades book was basically about male domination


Let us not forget that in the real S&M world (not in the world of porn) there are female Dominants too .... Domination is not a preserve of the males alone.
Top Secret Researcher
#34 Old 14th Jun 2015 at 3:25 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Nysha
"Christian is a complex character" unless you have literally read a textbook on domestic abuse, in which case he might actually be LESS complex than Twilight's characters...


Perhaps they meant "complex" as used in the phrase "Oedipus complex".

Quote: Originally posted by stuart-grey
I read a review that said this 50 shades book was basically about male domination and S&M. Is that right? I don't understand why it is so popular... I mean, even my mother in law sent a copy of the book to my wife... what's that about? Do women like that sort of thing?
[...]
I don't understand why anyone would want to get beat.


BDSM is to beatings as sex is to rape. When you consent to it and all parties agree on what to do and when to stop, then it's enjoyable. Take away the choice, and it becomes violence and abuse.
Think about spanking. When you're a kid and getting hit as punishment, it's not fun. When you're an adult and doing it for the pleasure of your partner, then it's sexy.

Actual BDSM centers around trust and power exchange. Everyone normally has equal power over themselves and their bodies. When engaging in BDSM, the submissive/masochist/disciplined/bound (going to summarize these as 'submissive') temporarily loans their power out to their dominator/sadist/discipliner/binder (summarized as 'dominator'). During the session, both parties hold a new kind of power over each other: the dominator has power over the submissive for the duration of the session, and the submissive has the power to end the session at any time, no questions asked. Dominators hold power, but submissives hold absolute power.
Because of that, trust is the most important part of BDSM. Submissives have to trust that their dominator will listen to them, and the dominator has to trust that the submissive knows their own boundaries and will properly guide the dominator - both through negotiations beforehand and through safewords used during the session.

Fifty Shades is NOT BDSM. Christian and Ana don't trust each other, and it's made clear that Christian does not care about consent. Furthermore, Ana is not allowed to take on the submissive's power - Christian repeatedly rapes her and tells her that she's not allowed to say no while giving lip service to consent. When going over the contract (which is actually a slave contract, not submissive), he alternately acts exasperated at her negotiations and amused that she's doing it, which are pretty good indications that he doesn't respect her. He doesn't act like a dom: he leeches all power, which makes him an abusive control freak.

Woman can enjoy being submissive to a man. I don't consider that anti-feminist. Like I said, the submissive retains power and the culture places a huge emphasis on consent and choice.
For why people enjoy it, it's pretty much a magnification of why spanking is hot. Mild pain in a sexual context can feel good and allowing yourself to relax and trust your partner is fun. I'm more on the other side, so I can't say too much about that.

As for the women who were beat by their husbands, that's probably more society telling them to martyr themselves for the sake of the children/marriage or be branded a terrible person than actual enjoyment.
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#35 Old 14th Jun 2015 at 3:29 AM
Quote: Originally posted by hugbug993
Actual BDSM centers around trust and power exchange.
Because of that, trust is the most important part of BDSM. Submissives have to trust that their dominator will listen to them, and the dominator has to trust that the submissive knows their own boundaries and will properly guide the dominator - both through negotiations beforehand and through safewords used during the session.


Perfectly said.
Guest
#36 Old 14th Jun 2015 at 3:34 AM
If the book isn't " BDSM", then what is it and why is it so popular? Even more so than "Harry Potter" (which could be better but still HP is popular...). It's drawn the attention of a very large number of folks.
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#37 Old 14th Jun 2015 at 3:40 AM Last edited by fairycake89 : 14th Jun 2015 at 3:53 AM.
Quote: Originally posted by stuart-grey
If the book isn't " BDSM", then what is it and why is it so popular? Even more so than "Harry Potter" (which could be better but still HP is popular...). It's drawn the attention of a very large number of folks.


It's what some people *think* BDSM is and given that BDSM has a risque reputation* doubtless it makes some people feel they are being edgy and kinky by reading the books ... that's my best guess. *Shrug*

*I feel that a lot of people would have a problem admitting they've been in the lifestyle in public because of the stigma of 'abuse' that's attached to it. People are worried about the rapist/bully or doormat connotations attached to the uninitiated view of BDSM.
Top Secret Researcher
#38 Old 14th Jun 2015 at 3:45 AM
Fifty Shades is rape porn. E. L. James is a dom, and she created Ana to fantasize about utterly controlling a person. Ana is the first-person narrator because James wants to describe in great detail exactly how her rape is hurting her victim while convincing herself that the victim enjoys it. Ana is female because that gives her less power; she's physically weaker than Christian and can't fight him off. Also, Ana is mentally a child. She has no personality, no hobbies, no knowledge of anything - seriously, she's floored by the idea that she might have an email address! - and the only reason she has any family ties are because they're carryovers from the fanfic. She's a child because that, again, gives her less power in the relationship.

Why it's popular? It has just enough elements of a romantic fantasy (wealthy, good-looking guy sweeps a plain girl off her feet and makes her feel special) that people generally don't pay attention to the actual contents of the book. It piggy-backed off of Twilight, where the appeal is the same thing (though it's not quite as rapey). Plus, most people don't understand BDSM, so they think that this sort of thing is normal.
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