I doubt it. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder,a nd it would be a bit of a stretch for EAxis to say "This is a beautiful sim, they are attracted" and "This is an ugly sim, theya re repulsed" based on facial features. Cause I (the gamer) might be really attracted to nerdy weird looking sims, while you (another gamer) are attracted to classically beautfiul sims.

And how would they handle CC? Or maybe you can pick from several options of beautiful and ugly, like you select each extreme for each sim and then the game rates everyone else based on how near or far they are from either extreme?

Except even in the opinions of an individual, there is no one ideal. Certain things are universal like youth, clear skin, health, and symmetry, but beyond that, even a single person can look at two people with extremely different facial structures and think that those two people are both beautiful, in different ways.

I'd hate having to define one "ideal" - I find many types of faces beautiful. Even looking at my existing sims:

http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?t=223743 - Pariah, very strong, almost lioness like features...
http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?t=227341 - Rebecca, very narrow face with petal lips...
http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?t=227932 - Olivia, very sharp, small features...

... I can't choose one of those I think is the "ideal" because none of them are and if I were to choose the most beautiful of those to define as an ideal, then if the game were going by that, the other two would be considered ugly, as they are -very- different in face shape...

So I really hope that things go by interests, hair color, eye color, etc., like the turn-ons and compatability we have in Sims 2, not in face shape. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, after all.

I guess that the turns on/off that came with nightlife are a basic form of recognising beauty for that sim, but again its only limited to hair colour or fitness. I would love if they could expand on the idea and make sims attracted/repulsed by different heights, eye colour, money, job, age, etc.

Ferret - They expanded it with Bon Voyage to include a lot more... including skills, job level, etc., which is kinda neat.

Yes, and i am not sure if Free Time included those as well for those without BV. There were about 14 new ones (great cook, unemployed, hard worker, logical, etc.). But I do hope that they expand on them in Sims 3 and make it so that the options are not all changeable. Like maybe make eye color and skin tone included. The reason why they weren't included in Sims 2 was because you could not change them in the game and the turn-ons/offs were basically supposed to include changeable options so that if a Sim you really have your eye on likes, say, redheads, and you are not a redhead, your Sim could just change the hair color so that the targeted Sim could then like you after having red hair. But I want this to be changed in Sims 3 because it's still unrealistic. If unchangeable options were included, it would make the game more realistic because then you can have your eye on a Sim and that Sim be forbidden, just like in real life, I'm sure many of us remember how we had a crush on someone who did not feel the same way in return. They are not going to like us any better because we dye our hair to the color of what they prefer, lol.

Also, I agree that it would be nearly impossible to have faces be ugly or attractive to Sims. Body sizes work differently because they are not going to look as unique as faces are. I'm sure we will get many more options. I actually hope that personality traits can now play a factor. It is realistic, after all.

One way you could make it work would be simple to asign attractivness to the Sim.

Click Sim, select "Very attractive"

Click Sim, select "unattractive"

Click Sim, select "smokin' hot!"

Click sim, select "average"

Oh, wow, I never thought about that. But then, how would it work with other Sims? Would you have to keep selecting those every time you see a Sim? Then again, this is not that much different than the current turn-ons/offs, only your idea is a manual version where the turn-ons/offs would be more of an automatic type.

Yeah, but I may think one person is attractive while you don't, which is the way it works in real life. I think that girl's boyfriend is ugly, but if she sees him as a hottie that's fine. The concept of beauty should be more individual and turn-on-based, like HP said.

It could be optional. You wouldn't have to click the sim and select an opinion on them, in which case, the sim being controlled may never become attracted to them. This would help unwanted attraction, like the nightlife turn-ons did to an extent.

It could also be a trait you assign to a sim in CAS, how attractive they are. Although this goes against the "beauty in the eye of the beholder" concept, you could also have an option for how easily swayed a sim is by conventional beauty. Some sims might not recognise how attractive another sim is.

And that is a very nice idea, but it sounds like it would be difficult to create.

I read a few years ago what most everyone finds attractive is median looks.

For instant, most people would decide an averaged sized nose is more attractive than a big, or little nose. Most people would decide average sized ears are better looking then big ears or small ears. Same with most other features.

So what most of us view as attractive is in reality someone with a lot of average features.

What I've proposed on a couple other sites is a way to made the Sims recognize this and act accordingly.

HOW IT WOULD WORK
Take a nose for example. You would give an average nose a zero. Each increase or decrease in size would be given a minus one, up to a limit of minus twelve. A graph would look something like this.

<-------------BIGGER-------------------SMALLER----------->
-12-11-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 0-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12

You would do this for each feature, then simply add up the score for each sim and that would give you that sims beauty quotient.

A TYPICAL SIM
Nose -7
Ears -1
Lips 0
Eyes -4
Eyebrows -8
--------------
-20 BEAUTY QUOTIENT

The above is just a few features, you could have more.

You could even adjust for that fact that some people like bigger or smaller features. Say a certain sim likes smaller features. Then what they like would be adjusted to the small side and their ratings would start at say minus four.

The fact is with this way of doing things you could adjust your self sim to like and dislike exactly what you like and dislike. You could create two sims to specifically like each other.

Of course the program running the sims would be doing the adding and subtracting, and making a sim react accordingly, but it would seem true to life.

You could even take this system and apply it to a lot more things and have a sim really act lifelike.

There could be a beauty calculation done based on the amount of variance a sim shows from a standardized "beauty mask" that has been created based on proportions in the Golden Ratio:

http://goldennumber.net/beauty.htm


But honestly, I find the whole idea of a mathematical standard for beauty dubious. I much prefer the system of turn-ons, turn-offs, and personality matches used in the Sims 2.


However, I wouldn't be opposed to some kind of system for an "unbelievably ugly" flag on townies. My poor sexy sims keep getting turned on by the most atrocious townies

Should be based on turn-ons/offs again; like we get in Sims 2 (but I'm not sure how much they affect a Sims perception of another Sim in Sims 2). So, one Sim could be attracted to a large nose where as another could be turned off and show shock/surprise.

Will Galen - That's not universal though. In general, yes, someone with features that are wildly weird will not be the most attractive, but I would -hate- a system that assigned beauty based on an average. I think unusual faces are beautiful (both in game and IRL) and anything that tried to tell me otherwise would be Not Cool.

I doubt maxis will put in any turn ons/offs that are bound to be viewed as discriminatory. There are people with large noses, I don't think they'll be very happy to see that in the sims.

yeah... i'm sure sims 3 will let us choose more then 2 turn ons and 1 turn off... and there will be a much larger selection...
or maybe individual sliders for each turn on/off? like we do now with faces... like

Jobs

....[job x]................[job y]
<======o=>.......<===o=====>

....[job q]................[job a]
<====o===>.......<o========>

etc.

Facial Features

[big nose]...[small nose]........[big eyes]...[small eyes]
.......<======o=>......................<o=======>
etc.

and it goes the same for skin tones, body sizes(reminds me of the rumored boob slider), eye color;

attraction would be also measured by a bar; bar increases or decreases after sim finds out his job and job level(Ask interaction)

............________
...|^|...|...........|
...|..|...|...-^-...|
...|#|...|..(o o)..|
...|#|...|....\u/ ..|
...|#|...|___||__|
attraction............
0(========o===)100
0(=======o====)100


i have too much time on my hands... too much time on my hands makes me want to draw asciis

Sliders could be cool! I like your idea for an attraction metre as well It would be good if Sims were attracted to one another based on their turn on/offs rather than it all being very neutral, like in Sims 2 your Sim can be attracted to and fall in love with any one even if they should be turned off by them. Levels of attraction could then also have an affect on how easy it is for two sims to become friends, flirt, fall in love etc.

I don't think people will find it 'discriminating' as someone mentioned above. If a Sim is turned off by a large nose they'll act as though they're turned off; if they're turned off by a small nose they'll act the same. Same with hair, eyes, body size, height, etc. It'd only be a problem if a Sim could only be turned off by a larger nose, but not a smaller one too for example.

Well, I like my sim being able to pick anyone. SO if they're naturally attracted to Mr. Fugly Townie, I can avoid him and if he's a stalker, I can change her turn on's. The systems you're describing sound really complicated, which makes them ahrd to change (gotta love re-nu-yu-porta-chug) and besides, turn ons and offs do work. I like the idea of there being several face templates that you can set at various levels, like template one (maxis or custom) is the epitome of beauty, and template 2 is god awful ugly. And the game calculates everyone between those two ideals. Plus turn ons and turn offs for eye/hair color and personality.

While the idea of Will Galen's post can seem cool, it's also very complex and I don't see it happening in Sims 3. I can see that more for Sims 4. There are already so many huge new features and what not that that would be something way too time-consuming and complex. Plus I don't think EA will be ready for that just yet. It will definitely be a lot of work to add to the game.

The problem with Will Galen's idea is that yes humans are biologically disposed to symetrical median faces. however, we are culturally disposed to strident features. Someone with a perfectly symmetrical face (and all sims ahve a perfectly symetrical face, am i the only one who hates that?) and one big feature, say a big nose, is more attractive than jsut the basic median in todays culture. So the ideal maxis picked would inevitably be widely disliked.

I don't think you could trust AI's for thing like beauty. Within a Sims game I guess you could try setting some parameters for it within CAS features, but that would be hard to make reliable. What maybe could be done would have a turn on/turn off system that includes things like "lots of big features," "lots of medium features," "mixed big and small," and so on.

It is a rather complex issue.

No, you're not. A non symetrical face gives a person more character so I wish both sides were customaizable. I don't expect that to happen though

LOL, Dammit, Maxis, how will I ever make my Shannon Doherty sim now???


But seriously, it doesn't bother me that facial structures are symmetrical. It bothers me that we don't have things like placeable moles, birthmarks, scars, and dimples.