I'm pretty sure most of you have seen what is going on in Gaza, and are horrified by it. :fight: The Jews forced their way in, the Muslims were unwilling to negotiate, the Jews got arrogant about it, the Muslims attacked them, the Jews pounded back, and the cycle spirals out of control. :handbag: It all started back around WW2 when the jews wanted their own country in the holy land. The US gov't unfortunately obliged, and the country of Israel was created despite the Muslim hatred of Jews. Obviously the whole thing is a multi-faceted, nuclear warhead-powered crystal that it rapidly fracturing further and further. It endangers us all, and though no one party is to blame, the Jews and Muslims certainly can take most of the blame. So the question to ask is: Have the Holy Land religions outlived their usefulness and survivability? Can we continue to look the other way while these barbaric factions continue to pound each other into oblivion over a couple of prophets? How can we put ALL of us in such danger by letting them get ever more powerful and angry? Can we really do ANYTHING now without the Arabs deciding that the kingdom has come and it's time for us to all go meet Allah in a nuclear holocaust? Can we afford to NOT do something about it?

Additionally, as a disclaimer, I do not hate any religion, i have great respect for all legitimate religions and I do not wish to offend anyone. i know of one Muslim on the site, and there are definitely more than just one. There are obviously Jews as well, and I do not wish to offend you either. I am simply addressing what could possibly be the single most urgent crisis facing the world this very moment.

I would be remiss if I didn't point out that ultimately, Christianity is a "Middle Eastern" religion. Christianity is rooted in Judaism, and Jerusalem is just as sacred to Christians as it is to Jews and Muslims. In fact, Christians worship a Jewish carpenter. Our Holy Book was written by Jews, and covers the history of Israel for about 4200 years. I don't think its fair to eliminate Christianity as a "Middle Eastern" religion.

Since are both still there, I think its obvious they haven't lived past their usefullness or survivability. Really, this isn't even a major scuffle yet. There has been much worse bloodshed. What is most likely going to happen, is they will find a reason for a cease fire at some point, call a truce, exchange prisoners like they always do, and coexist nervously next to each other for a while, then start again. This isn't World War III. Israel will survive, the Muslim states will survive, and life will carry on. That land has had contested ownership for thousands of years, not just since 1948.

Usefulness, probably (Christianity included). Survivability, very likely not. Natural disasters make people turn away from religion, but being bombed by people of another religion just solidifies beliefs on both sides.

I never said christianity was not a middle east religion. I just never really thought to bring it up.

Ok, so next question, what do we DO to HELP the situation?

Actually the struggle between the jews and the muslims started long long before WW2. A quick google search shows me 7th century CE but not real sure how accurate that is, but the jewish/muslim conflict started centuries ago and has been spiraling out of control since.

well, i meant that it was intensified when israel was reinstated. I know it was in full swing about the time of the crusades, and the moors took over spain about 700 AD, which was obviously before the crusades, so yes, I'd say that 600-700 is about right.

Q: Have the Holy Land religions outlived their usefulness and survivability?

A: Not by a long shot. These religions help preserve societies that otherwise would have been swept away a long time ago. The Greeks and Jews would have been assimilated and forgotten if it wasn’t for their respective religion that helped preserve their culture. Islam helped bring about the eventual end of female mutilation in Arabia and the rest of the Muslim world (Not counting Africa) it also elevated the roles of females in religion and civic life. Do I need to list the great works of the Islamic and Christian empires?

Q: Can we continue to look the other way while these barbaric factions continue to pound each other into oblivion over a couple of prophets?

A: One. We aren’t barbaric. Excuses us for thinking differently. Two. We’re (Palestinians and Israelis) not killing each other over prophets. The Palestinians are fighting over their homeland that was stolen from under their feet after. The Israelis are fighting to save their newfound haven from a world that always blamed them for every mistake.

Q: How can we put all of us in such danger by letting them get ever more powerful and angry?

A: By continuously being ignorant about the problem, blaming it on religion and trying to change us. Want to solve it? Admit that you did wrong and try an evenhanded approach.

Q: Can we really do anything now without the Arabs deciding that the kingdom has come and it's time for us to all go meet Allah in a nuclear holocaust?

A: What the F**K are you talking about? What kingdom? We aren’t Catholic. And Iran has nuclear weapons (allegedly) not us. They’re Persian if you’re confused. Like the rug or cat.

Q: Can we afford to NOT do something about it?

A: Well you haven’t been doing sh*t for the past 60 years. So another 60 won’t hurt you. It’ll hurt us. But who cares about brown people killing brow people, right?

Q: what do we do to help the situation?

A: Admit that you recognized a country that destroyed the rights of a people to self-determination. Oh and try an evenhanded approach next time. Recognized Hamas as the elected government of the Palestinian people. It wouldn’t hurt if you helped oust Mubarak (Dick-tator of Eygpt)


The Jews didn’t force there way into Palestine. True they wanted a homeland in the Holy Lands but only the radicals wanted to forcibly take it. The majority who wanted to resettle in Palestine were happy to share the land with the Muslims and Christians already there.

Please note that out of all the Jews who were escaping Nazis Germany and Anti-Semitic Europe only a small few, spurred by religious fervor wanted to live in Jerusalem and the Holy Land the rest wanted to go to North America or England. At that time the majority of the Middle East, and the non-western world, was a garbage dump.

The British and other European forces transported the Jews in Palestine and when the Jews settled and wanted to expand the British denied them and soon they were both fighting each other, with the Jews using tactics that Hamas employs right now. After increasing pressure on successive British governments to allow more Jews into Palestine to save them from the Germans (because the West didn’t want them) the Palestinians were growing increasingly alarmed. To pacify the Palestinians the British promised that after the end of the war the Palestinian majority would receive the control of their own state. They promised the Jews the same things. The British couldn’t keep their promise and pulled out leaving the choice to the newly born U.N who had no clue about the history of the land. The U.N gave the minority population, Jewish Europeans, the majority of the land. All Hell broke out in the Holy Lands as the Arabs rioted.



The American government only recognized Israel and so did the USSR. Also we don’t hate the Jews we hate Israel. There’s a difference.


When the prophet Mohammed entered Yathrab (what is now called Medina) the Jews celebrated because they believed that he was their messiah. When the Mohammed P.B.U.H started criticize the Jews for some of the things they did they didn’t like him. Just like they did with Jesus. There were three Jewish tribes in the city. Two conspired to assassinate our prophet. They failed and were found out. The tribes were kicked out and only allowed to leave with what their camels could carry. The last tribe decided to stab the young Muslims community in the back when the idol-worshippers decided to attack Medina. The invasion was repelled and the Jewish tribe was awaiting the community’s judgment. The Jews fearing for the worst asked a friend, the figurehead of one of the tribes and a respected Muslim to decided their fate. He said that they showed be punished by the laws of their Book. 700 men were executed and the females and children were tuned into slaves.

Als, correct me if my memory's fuzzy. But haven't these lands really been under dispute between the forerunners of both sides going back to prophetic times? Granted, it's been a while since I looked at my religious geography. But I don't know that it's technically a "newfound haven" unless you consider going back to Moses and the Ten Commandments "newfound".

A few thousand years ago isn’t that far back really, on a cosmic level. It all depends on what view you take. Religiously you are given three points of narration. The Jews believe that it was given to them, but they sinned and are forced to wander the Earth until the messiah comes and redeems them. The Christians hold the same view, but see Jesus as the redeemer. Muslims view is that the Jews were not God’s chosen people, nor did God promise them anything. Why should he hold a people over all others, or send prophets to the non-chosen people? Why are they forced to wonder and be cursed if God holds them in such high regard?

A non-religious view would be that the land should not have been given to the non-indigenous people because of a book that has changed so many times and talks about people, places that might not even exists.

Either way the (European) Jews found a place where they’re no longer the minority and could dictate what goes on.

I totally agree with this point. It's so hypocritical to not do so.

Ummm, doesn't the Quran say that Abraham (the prophet of the Jews) and Jesus (the Lord of Christians) are prophets of Allah? So, if it is as you say, and Muslims don't accept that Jews are a chosen people, why does Islam consider Abraham to be a prophet of Allah? Isn't that contradictory? You ask why would God (Allah) send prophets to a non-chosen people, yet, hold that Abraham, the main prophet of Judaism, was a prophet like Muhammed. The fact that Muhammed considered Abraham to be a Holy prophet kinda negates your whole "God wouldn't send a prophet to a non-chosen people" argument, because well, God did.

This debate isn't about the contradictions of Islam, davious. I personally think this whole topic is ridiculous. Every religion has bad things and bad times (Spanish inquisition, anyone?) and Islam is experiencing that now, sort of. I think this is an issue that should be kept political for the sake of sparing lives in war. A religion will NEVER outlive its so called "usefulness" until the day the last believer dies. Religion isn't a public service, it's a personal choice.

You seemed to misunderstood me. There are no chosen people, no people are closer to God than any other people. Abraham was sent to the Tribes of Israel so as to bring the message of God to them.

When I said why did God send a prophet to the non-Chosen people I meant it this way: If you are the Chosen people than why did God send a prophet to the Arabs? Indians? Native Americans? Rus? (In Islam God sent a prophet to every people.)

Ah. Then I did misunderstand you. I took your post as saying God didn't send prophets to Israel.

No, no. He did. It would be stupid to say other wise.

Regarding this "war", I don't really have an opinion myself, as mine changes like everyday or so. but this article is particularly interesting to me (posted at Faith Freedom forum, and apparently was taken from here)


whoa that was a long read :einstein

Oh and by the way this is not treeag herself this is her cousin, Matt. (I'm borrowing her account and she just HAD to make sure I write this disclaimer, meh. I'm not even stating anything, merely quoting an article)

First the webpage is biased I've seen it before, it tends to twist the truth to met it's own goals. (understatement if I might add)

It's true that Palestine isn't Arab, but neither is Syria, Lebanon, Jordon, Iraq, Egypt, or the other North African countries. But the majority of the people speak the Arabic tongue, practice the Arabic culture, are part of the Arab Union hence they are Arab nations, with an Arab majority population. The people who inhabited Palestine thought of themselves as Arabs: Muslims, Christians and Jews alike. They spoke the Arabic tongue and their Holy Books were written in Arabic and so were the signs and names of streets, buildings and monuments.

Weather the people who inhabited the Holy Land are Arab or not they still lost their country to some refuges who were dumped on their land. They lost their country because some people who have no cultural, linguistic, or racial connection to the lands were given control of it. Why should they respect the Israelis? Because some Polish or German refugee bombed and plotted his way to the top? That makes them the rightful owners?

Fair enough. But considering most people's historical perspective starts on the day they were born, I would hope you could understand why I was reticent to assume how broad a view you were taken. A lot of folks would hear that "newfound haven" line and only go as far back as 1948 because that's all they could grasp. Thanks for clarifying.

Yeah but after WWII they sent the jews to Israël so that's when it escalated.
During the Babylonion banishment in 1500 or so? (I don't know when exactly) the people there banished the jews from that area so that's why they wanted to go back there.

I can imagine it from the part of the palestines who lived there first for centuries. You're just living there nice and then one day there comes a group of people and they say just so this is our new country. That's asking for conflicts. But I also think the Hamas goes too far with their bombs etc.
I would say, go live in peace with eachother! But that's ofcours easier said than done, and if you live there you ofcours have another view on it.

First of all, there's a huge misunderstanding here. Jews have lived in Israel for a VERY long time. Before World War II, Palestine was predominantly Arab and Muslim, but it also had large Jewish and Christian populations, and still does. The only thing that changed after World War II was that there was a very large influx of European Jews (who look and speak differently than Mediterranean Jews and have some minor cultural and religious differences as well.) And there was the whole Zionist movement to create an Israeli state, prompted in part by the shock and religiious ferver created in the aftermath of the Holocaust to try to make some sense out of things. Apparently the US and other UN factions thought that after the creation of Israel, everybody would eventually just get used to it. Guess they were wrong.

But it's sixty years later. The Jews living in Israel were born there, their parents were born there, they grew up there, and they're not going to move anywhere else. So short of making peace, there's no simple solution. It's pointless to try to make one side the "bad guys" and one the "good guys," because you can't eradicate one side or the other no matter how much brute force you bring to bear. Even nuclear weapons wouldn't work. They'd just keep trying to make a living in the radioactive rubble.

I don't think we (the US) can do much about it other than to wait for another opportunity for peace to come along. You can't force it. Every time it looks like the fire may be dying down, it blazes up again.

And this is one reason I'm angry at the outgoing Bush administration. The only useful thing we could ever do in this process is to try to maintain the appearance of fair, honest brokers of peace, as Carter and Clinton did, so that when the opportunity for peace really does come, there will be somebody ready to set the negotiating table. However, the Bush administration, under the influence of the neocons, who are mostly right-wing Jewish hawks with connections to the Israeli Likud party, found an easy mark in George W. Bush. With their emphasis on good guys and bad guys and their unwillingness to tamp down violence, they have made it difficult for future US presidents to function as honest brokers. It's a real tragedy.

Black Barook: Sorry if I offended you, I had no intention of doing so. i have nothing against muslims (moslims?) , their faith, or their beliefs. I was simply referring to the extremist islamsic factions that give muslims a bad name. I do admit that I should have referred more specifically to the extremists and the persians, not to the arabs in general. Another generalization causes misunderstandings. My bad. My sincerest apologies. Hamas may have been the elected government, but it certainly isn't seeming to do much good on it's own. Take Bush for example. We elected him twice, and he managed to pull the wool over our eyes both times. I believe the same thing is happening with Hamas. They looked good at first, but they really were fooling the people who were electing them. Certainly I don't know the absolute truth on this matter, but who really does?

Please excuse anything that may have sounded racist. I do NOT think it's "in the end just about brown people killing brown people." I have very dear arabic (or persian, whatever term you prefer) friends, and wouldn't trade them for the world.

My view is biased, but just remember that your view is biased as well.

To Rapsheba555:
1. Your comments weren't racists and even if they were it would not have offended me. What offended me was your ignorance of the situation in the "Holy Lands" and I don't really blame you since the majority of the Western media rarely bother with a balanced view.

Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land 1 talks about the United State's Media's lopsided view of the events and that has an effect on peoples perceptions of the region and its people.

The Jews "forced" their way in? :confused:

There have always been Jews, Christians, and Muslims in Palestine. Your ignorance of the history of that area is showing

I think he was talking about the Israelis occupying Gaza and WBank for 30-40 years.



I think they were talking about the European Jews who found themselves in Palestine.