Bye I'm off to go play GTA4

Pff. I've been playing GTA since I was about 8 years old (Even the really old 2D bird's eye view ones ) and I've turned out fine. I've never had a motive to murder anyone and I think it's sick to murder another human being.

I managed to get my parnets to let me buy it!!

Now I have bought it from the internet and will likely have to wait a week before it arrives.

I think if you can explain to your children that it's only a game, your concern is a bit overblown. My 8 year old isn't worried about crime because he played San Andreas. Right now he's more concerned about that space ship on Fallout 3. In short he played San Andreas and has now moved onto another game, no innocence lost whatsoever

who cares? those kids will learn about the real world sooner or later......better sooner. maybe if parents were doing their responsibility (like watching kids instead of talking on cell phones). personally, i think it is more malicious when parents lie to kids about the world. this world is a fucked up piece of crap. kids should know the truth. this world isn't a 'magical place with sunshine and rainbows'. maybe kids will actually think for once instead of doing dumb things.

This is from a while back, but this caught my interest:



I was pretty well-informed as a kid, but I don't think it was a bad thing. I never behaved much like your average child. I wanted to learn far more than I wanted to play, and the carefree qualities of childhood had nothing to do with ignorance of the ways of life. To me, a carefree childhood is one with loving parents and security, not sheltering from knowledge. I have always been rather obsessive about learning, so I liked that my parents were honest with me. My parents also felt it necessary to be honest with me because they had no way of knowing what I would be exposed to once I started school, so they explained things to me in a more rational manner than I was likely to get from my classmates.

My parents weren't all that concerned about nudity, though they didn't show me explicit sex scenes. As far as violence goes, I used to watch those old Looney Tunes cartoons, among other things, that parent advocacy groups condemn for being too violent, but I've turned out just fine. I watched The Matrix when I was 10. It is hard to totally avoid violence because it is so prevalent in the media. I think it is more important to explain why it is wrong and why a lot of the depictions of violence are so inaccurate than it is to totally shelter a child.

As far as GTA is concerned, I haven't played it, so I don't know exactly what it is like, but I think that a reasonably mature child (not in age, but in personality) would be able to handle it. If you have a child that shows signs of being violent and having a weak grasp on reality, it may not be a good idea, but if you have a child who has seen some violence before and has been unaffected by it, I don't see a problem.

Yes but I fail to see any situation where a child is going to benefit from getting the inside details of planning murders or selling drugs. We aren't talking about The Matrix here... which is ostensibly a kids film anyway. GTA is much more than that.

I'm not running the argument that if affects kids because most stable kids could handle and contextualise the content.

As I said my issue isn't that children can't handle the content just that they shouldn't have to. I'm not talking about sheltering them from knowledge at all - sounds like your parents had the right idea in terms of how they educated you. And I'm 100% in favour of that. I'm just not in favour of children being exposed to the gritty details of concepts like murder and crime. They don't need to know that information and they'll deal with it soon enough. I'm not preaching ignorance of these elements of life but I fail to see in what way a child benefits from playing a game where your goals include murder, sex, rape, selling drugs, etc.

Such a kid would turn out fine... I have no problem with that. But have they gained anything? No, they've lost the opportunity to experience the innocence of a child. You can't get that back EVER. So why take it away? They'll be an adult soon enough... let them enjoy kid things while they still can. They can't appreciate how good they have it at that age and I think it is incumbant on parents to ensure that they do get to appreciate that time later in life when they won't have the opportunity to go back and experience it again.

Damn that is a rambling unstructured post. :P

For the record I greatly enjoy games like Manhunt, films like House of a Thousand Corpses, etc... I'm not anti-violence, anti-horror or any of those things. Folks don't respond to any of this with "But I turned out fine" that's not what I'm arguing. :P

I suppose we simply have different 'goals' for what makes a happy childhood. I don't think that knowing that people do some horrible things and what some of those horrible things are screwed up my childhood. I don't feel like I lost anything by knowing what rape, murder, and drug-addiction are from a young age. I simply didn't dwell on those things, but the knowledge was there so that I would know what it was if the topic came up.

I can understand not wanting young children to play videogames that include those topics, because it's not really something that a child should dwell on, but some kids may enjoy playing a game like that. Sometimes little kids (especially boys, from my experience) think that violence and gore are cool. I think that most of those kids know the difference between fantasy and reality and simply enjoy those things for whatever reason. For that matter, what benefit do adults get from a game like GTA?

I think part of the difference in our views is that my parents basically treated me like an adult when I was a kid. I was expected to be responsible for my actions and my parents didn't talk to me like I wouldn't understand something. I was given a little bit of leeway because I was still a kid, but they ultimately treated me as a reasoning being. I think this method worked well for me, so I tend to think that it is a good way to raise kids. Clearly, you think that kids should be kids, that there is an intrinsic difference between childhood and adulthood. Not to say that you think children aren't responsible, reasoning beings, because I don't really know your stance on that, but there is a difference in the way we view childhood.

People keep missing my point. I think 99.9999% of kids can handle and appropriately contextualise the content of a game like GTA IV (a game I adore incidentally). Most kids know the difference between fantasy and reality. I agree with all of this. I just don't think kids should dwell on the evils of the world when they don't have to. Adults do, we have no choice... why do we want to take that away from our children?

Your parents raised you in the same way I was raised and in turn will raise my own children.

You speak of not dwelling on these things and I agree. Playing a game which is aimed at adults and deals almost exclusively with these issues in a graphic and often confronting way IS dwelling on those issues.

I have no problems with a kid playing something like Gears of War, I probably wouldn't recommend it to a kid but it is sci-fi fantasy despite the level of gore. It isn't dwelling on the evils of adult life. GTA does. I also wouldn't want a kid playing Manhunt (another Rockstar Game) which is all about killing people in the most visual way possible using household objects all to fulfil the sick fantasies of an ever present snuff film director who has trapped you in this situation.

I'm not talking about kids knowing the difference between fantasy and reality. I'm not saying experiencing these games will mess a kid up. My argument has absolutely nothing to do with any potential psychological implications of this.

All I'm saying is this: Children don't have to deal with the intricacies of the scary people of the world - the criminals, the rapists, the murderers, etc - that is what their parents are for.

Kids can know this stuff but sitting down and playing a twenty hour long title where the subject matter IS crime and dealing with cracked out junkies, etc happens every few seconds - that IS dwelling on the issue.

To answer your question of what benefit adults get... simple... we deal with these issues on a day to day basis. I know people who have been raped, I live in an area which has seen many gangland deaths, I've had an axe held to my head during an armed robbery... to be able to trivialise something I am confronted with almost every day is a way of blowing off steam and being able to take control of something we don't control in real life.

How many kids know people who have been raped and have to deal with the consequences of what it means for their friends, how many kids have been held up, how many kids walk down the street at night and see people fighting outside a night club? A kid can no about these things, I have no problems with that but they need not dwell on them. Playing these games is doing just that.

Adults have evils in their life, they have no choice about that. Should a kid have evils in their life when they still have the option to not? Hell no, and no child is going to realise that until they are an adult and then it is too late.

People underestimate the power of experience. I thought I was mature when I was 16... when I hit my 20s I realised that wasn't the case and I thought I was mature then. I'm 32 now and I look back at my twenties and realise I was not done maturing and I'm still not done now. All kids think they know what they want and what is good for them. If I'd gotten what I'd want I'd have lived on a diet of lemon sherbet and lasagne. I'd probably have died of cardiovascular disease by now or at least be experiencing late onset diabetes. :P

Kids are always in a rush to grow up - that is the nature of the beast - but adult life with its various perks does have negatives that life as a child doesn't. I'm a firm believe that we should experience the full gamut of what life has to offer. Filling children's heads with images of the worst of life evils (please not this is different than being aware of these evils - I'm talking about dwelling on these issues by playing games that are about nothing but) at the one stage of their life when they won't be bombarded by it on a day to day basis is, in my mind, irresponsible.

Your parents obviously didn't allow that nor did mine. Why should we go "Oh that's okay" when a parent says to their 10 year old - here play this game that is exclusively about mankinds evils. Fill your head with all the bad stuff you can.

It disrespects the power of children. They have true imagination yet our education system, our entertainment, everything is designed to destroy that. Why help destory such an incredibly precious resource?

It may not be directly related, but this talk from Sir Ken Robinson on education at TED Talks ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG9CE55wbtY ) sums up why kids are important and what values they have that as adults we don't. This is why I'm firmly against racing kids to adulthood as quickly as possible.

Isn't the purpose of playing games having fun, not gaining something?

The implication is not that they should gain something... the implication is that they lose something they can't get back.

Continuing this argument just depresses me. That society sees so little value in children and people seem okay with it... well I have no words for that. I really don't.

I have nothing further to say on the subject other than imploring people watch that TED Talks video I linked to in my previous post. Hopefully someone can come out of that with some understanding why childhood is so incredibly precious.

Never played it but to answer your question I must refer back to what my grandma used to tell me when I would buy a mature game "It's not like their not going to see it every day on the tv or in the real world." So no, I think anyone should play anything that they want as long as they can actually get their hands on it.