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Banned
#26 Old 28th Jul 2010 at 2:40 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Sim-brother
It indeed would be very hard to present elements of medieval european culture to non-european audiences, such as the omnipotence of the catholic church and the frequent toasting of women an ''heretics'' such as muslims (probably a large group of buyers) and pagans. And they probably won't include fun stuff like iron maidens and witch-hunts.


Well, actually things like witch burnings were products of the Enlightenment. The theory was established during the Middle Ages, and there were some burnings of heretics -- particularly during the Albigensian Crusade -- but things did not get really nasty until much later.

But still, most want a fantasy version of the Middle Ages. After all, human civilization was still in the midst of the Malthusain nightmare during the middle ages. (Population increases along with productivity, keeping society at a subsistence level.) Infant mortality was very high -- most babies born did not survive to become adults. The Middle Ages was, after all, a pretty miserable time in which to live.

There are the positive things, like the building of the great cathederals and the founding of universities. Plus there are some really dramatic technological and scientific achievements, such as the doubling of agricultural output, the discovery of "time," the discovery of zero, the use of Arabic numerals, the rediscovery of classical thought, the development of the scientific method, the development of new architectual and artistic techniques.

I don't see how they could do an historical Middle Ages without the church. The Medieval Church was a very important part of the period.
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Theorist
#27 Old 28th Jul 2010 at 3:43 AM
Perhaps they could have religion and prosecution, generically called 'the church' and heretics. They wouldn't have to mention Christ at all, the church would represent... the right way. Nevermind, it will never work!
Theorist
#28 Old 28th Jul 2010 at 4:21 AM
Because even if you make up some religion then at least some people will hate it... I'm REALLY interested to see how they pull this off, will it be like the sims but in medieval times? Will it be some sort of story guided game? Will they actually do a decent job of it (doubtful)

I'm excited but I don't want to get my hopes set too high

Hi I'm Paul!
Top Secret Researcher
#29 Old 28th Jul 2010 at 4:28 AM
I really doubt it will be a historical version of Sims 3. EA would never lock themselves into something that would be pulled apart by historian Sims fans. Instead it will be a fantasy version, probably with elves and faeries as well. I don't mind as long as I can keep them out of my game. My medieval worlds have never been historical but instead a non-magic fantasy world based in the medieval ages. Historical would force me to play a certain way...no fun at all!
Theorist
#30 Old 28th Jul 2010 at 4:37 AM
Yes that is what I thought too ^ it's going to be a very unrealistic view of the middle ages with handsome knights saving pretty princesses, not that that's a bad thing, I don't think a game based around the real middle ages would be much fun to play/be rated M.

I hope that it doesn't go much into the fantasy realm though, I like playing creatures but I don't want them to be an integral part of the game.

Hi I'm Paul!
Retired
retired moderator
#31 Old 28th Jul 2010 at 4:48 AM
Quote:
Well, actually things like witch burnings were products of the Enlightenment.


Saywhat? The beginning of the Enlightmentment in the late 1600s signaled precisely the decline of the witch-burning period.

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GON OUT, BACKSON, BISY BACKSON
Scholar
Original Poster
#32 Old 28th Jul 2010 at 6:13 AM Last edited by suzetter : 28th Jul 2010 at 6:23 AM.
I have a feeling EA will concentrate more on castles, moats, jousts stockades, and farms than political or religious intrigue. But wouldn't it be nice to have a cathedral, monestery, and cloister? Most medieval art was religious as well. Has anyone read Pillars of the Earth by Ken Folliet? I love that book--the anchor of the story is the building of a medieval cathedral. It was a great read and the medieval architecture bits were well researched. It shows how the Catherdrals/churches were at the heart of a medieval community. It was often the place people went to get medical help, food rations, or dispell any bad mojo they think had come their way. It was usually the site for market day. There is so much story in medieval times other than the inquisition. Being clergy back then was considered a good job, guilds were in competition with each other, there was active and widespread trade and commerce, farmer was a main occupation, people were mainly iliterate but there were very definite rules of conduct and social mores were observed. Also 6 year old girls were not commonly engaged (not married) to old men--that mainly happened in the aritstocracy and was a way of combining or protecting land rites. Average lifespan was about 30-40 years old so yes they married young-- but usually in their teens (after reaching puberty). Most medieval people did live normal lives even throughout the times of inquisition and plague (20m dead) just like most people nowadays live normal lives through wars and the aids epidemic (25m dead).

Middle ages seems like a drudge to us but to the people living at the time they had advantages in farming, weaving, transport, etc that were not available to the generations before them so maybe they didn't perceive it as being as harsh as we do today. It's all relative.

I don't see why EA can't make an interesting Medieval game if they want to without stripping everything out of it. If people are so intolerant as to be offended to see a catherdral in the game then they just probably shouldn't play it.
Banned
#33 Old 28th Jul 2010 at 7:07 AM
Quote: Originally posted by kiwi_tea
Saywhat? The beginning of the Enlightmentment in the late 1600s signaled precisely the decline of the witch-burning period.


Ever hear of the the Salem witch trials?


Quote: Originally posted by suzetter
But wouldn't it be nice to have a cathedral, monestery, and cloister? Most medieval art was religious as well. Has anyone read Pillars of the Earth by Ken Folliet?


Don't forget The Name of the Rose and the Brother Cadfael mysteries. The DaVinci Code and Angels and Demons were derived from Medieval/Renaissance legends. Also remember that most of the King Arthur legends date from the 12th Century. So religion and religious institutions can be incorporated in a manner consistent with a lot of literature. In fact, mocking some of the religious practices would be entirely consistent with the period -- think of Chaucer's Canterbury Tales or the practice of the fool's mass.

For those interested in occult legends, one does not have to look much further than the Albigensian Crusade. Of course, the study of this period is marred by the fact that the NAZIs took such an interest in it. But the occult themes appear elsewhere as well (Remember the movie Ladyhawk).

Conspiracy theorists have the Knights Templar, the Freemasons and the Illuminati.

I still would like to be able to take my modern sims back to a medieval world to explore some of these mysteries.

By the way, do not understate the misery of the period. The plague killed between 30% and 50% of the population. see Barbara Tuchman's "A Distant Mirror" For a more dramatic portrayal of the period, Ingmar Bergman's "The Seventh Seal" or "The Return of Martin Guerre"
Retired
retired moderator
#34 Old 28th Jul 2010 at 7:19 AM Last edited by kiwi_tea : 28th Jul 2010 at 8:14 AM.
Quote:
Ever hear of the the Salem witch trials?


Of course, yes. However, they don't demonstrate your claim even slightly. They're a very well known case of a witch hunt at the tail end of the major witch hunting era. We know them so well primarily because they came at the tail end of that era and were subsequently condemned as irrational in the light of Enlightment thinking. What happened in Salem was not a 'product of' the Enlightment at all, it was a final gasp of a medieval brutality.

Bear in mind you used the words 'product of'. Puritanical, regressive, superstitious, irrational killings were the 'product of' a movement that saw rationalism, analysis, and controversial new ideas surge to the fore? Really? How does that figure?

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GON OUT, BACKSON, BISY BACKSON
Top Secret Researcher
#35 Old 28th Jul 2010 at 7:32 AM
The Salem witch trials are over-rated. They were not nearly as widespread as modern fiction tells us and they were definitely not like the burning times of the Medieval era.

The stories in the King Arthur legends took place during and after the fall of the Roman empire, so more like the 9th century, not the 12th, although the stories were written during the 12th century and created the notion of the romantic knight. If Arthur existed, his life was probably much different than Chaucer's stories.

The 'plague' as we know it occurred mostly in the 14th and 15th centuries and yes, it was horrible. But the middle ages began in the 5th century until the 15th century. Our romantic view of the middle ages is probably during the High Middle Age which was from about the 11th century to the 13th century. It was during the late middle ages that a lot of nasty things happened, famine, plague, and a lot of wars.

As for the average age span, it was 40 years not because most people died at 40 but because so many people died in childhood. Many people lived into old age but more people died very young. An average takes into account infant deaths..which were numerous...and other types of deaths, including old age and death from wars, hard labor, etc. So while its unlikely many lived to be 100, it was not uncommon for people to live into their 60s and sometimes 70s. Of course, the richer, the better food and care, so they most likely lived longer.

Occult legends...crusades..Nazi's..hmm..good fodder for a pen and paper game. Thanks! I needed something for my next campaign.
Alchemist
#36 Old 28th Jul 2010 at 8:56 AM
you know, it may just be me, but this just strikes me as pointless. I definitely won't be buying it anyway, that's for sure. But then I guess, everyone's style is different.

Everything sucks, until it doesn't.
Banned
#37 Old 28th Jul 2010 at 2:04 PM Last edited by tjstreak : 28th Jul 2010 at 2:18 PM.
Quote: Originally posted by kiwi_tea
They're a very well known case of a witch hunt at the tail end of the major witch hunting era.


Bingo! My point exactly. The witch burnings took place long after the middle ages ended. They started to pick up steam during the counter-reformation and went on for centuries after that.

Keep in mind that the term "enlightenment" was coined in the 19th century. The people of that time period did not run around claiming to be "enlightened." (Or at least, most of them did not.) It's a way of patting people on the back: "We are not like those people who lived in the Middle Ages (another term coined after the period), we are enlightened -- We burn our witches!"


Quote: Originally posted by rian90
The stories in the King Arthur legends took place during and after the fall of the Roman empire, so more like the 9th century, not the 12th, although the stories were written during the 12th century and created the notion of the romantic knight.


I thought that's what I posted. The first Arthurian stories were written by Cretien de Troyes in the 12 century. They may have existed before then as folklore. Mallory expanded the stories a a couple of centuries later. The stories are told in the context of 12th century life, not in the context following the departure of Roman troops from Britain.

Quote: Originally posted by rian90
The 'plague' as we know it occurred mostly in the 14th and 15th centuries and yes, it was horrible.


Actually, there were many plagues before the development of modern medicine, and some after. Think of the influenza pandemic of the early 20th century. The Great Plague took place during the 14th Century and led to much social upheaval. (Richard the Second dealt the the Watt Tyler uprising which was one of the consequences of the plague -- which in turn gave poor Richard delusions that he was capable of governing.)

Something the don't like teaching in high school history classes: Native Americans were hit with major plagues (in particular small pox) after the arrival of Europeans. The reason the Puritains were in Salem is because disease killed off 90% of the native population.

Quote: Originally posted by rian90
But the middle ages began in the 5th century until the 15th century. Our romantic view of the middle ages is probably during the High Middle Age which was from about the 11th century to the 13th century. It was during the late middle ages that a lot of nasty things happened, famine, plague, and a lot of wars.


I prefer to think of the Medieval period as stretching from the fall of the (Roman) Empire in the West (5th Century) until the fall of the (Roman) Empire in the East (1453).

The early medieval period was pretty awful, too. Lots of plagues, pillaging and the like. Keep in mind that the Roman legions were also the police force -- when they left society had a total political, economic and social collapse. It was a disaster. Britain's population finally recovered to its 5th century levels in the 15th century. That's a 1000 year depression! By the way, I fully expect a Sims Medieval to have Vikings running around, in horned helmets no less.

There was a 12th Century renaissance, which in many respects was much more dramatic than the period we call "The Renaissance." The Pillars of the Earth deals with the early part of this 12th century rennaisance -- King Stephan's Civil War. But also keep in mind that one of the truly great medieval kings, Henry II, followed Stephan. (Two more really good movies on the period: Becket and The Lion in Winter -- both involving Henry.) Aside from Stephan's Civil War, and the Second and Third Crusades, this period is relatively peaceful. Like you, this is the period I would hope to see.
Scholar
#38 Old 28th Jul 2010 at 2:52 PM
I wish they went to the Renascence period instead. They won't put the dirty part of the medieval era into the game, I doubt.
Theorist
#39 Old 28th Jul 2010 at 3:33 PM
"Something the don't like teaching in high school history classes: Native Americans were hit with major plagues (in particular small pox) after the arrival of Europeans. The reason the Puritains were in Salem is because disease killed off 90% of the native population."

Really? I learned all about that in SS this year.

Hi I'm Paul!
Scholar
Original Poster
#40 Old 28th Jul 2010 at 4:01 PM Last edited by suzetter : 28th Jul 2010 at 4:36 PM. Reason: additrion and typos
It was not commonplace to mock any authority aloud be it the church or the king. You can't go by Chaucer's "Canterbury Tales" anyway since he cadged the idea, style and sentiment from the Italian "Decameron" which was written a century earlier.

Yeah, most people died of infection (no antibiotics then) or during childbirth (that includes mothers and babies) which accounted for the low average life span.

The plague was horrible but people lived through it, farmed through it, traded through it, and gave birth to kids during it so horrible or not people that did not contract plague or recovered from it (some did) went about their lives.

Honestly, I don't want to play a game that focuses on "The Black Plague". I wouldn't find that fun. If a medieval sim or two contracts some sores --that I could live with.

High Middle Ages is a good time frame since that was a period of invention -- spinning wheels, paper, eyeglasses, gunpowder. Transport improved so there was more trading and traveling. And it was the time of Gothic architecture -- I like a nice ribbed vault and flying buttress (haha). The architecture of the period was particularly good IMO. But how the game would look would depend on the locale it was emulating since Britain looked very different from Venice which looked very different from Jerusalem, etc.

This was also the period of the Crusades, Knights Templar, Code of Chivalry, revival of the classical studies (philosphy, poetry, mathematics), the formation of Universities. Also when Guilds becamed licensed --guilds are very interesting when you get into all the things they did that effected society--protecting merchants and workers, collectively fighting taxes, also manipulating events at times.

Wow, this could be so good if it happens and is done right.
Top Secret Researcher
#41 Old 28th Jul 2010 at 6:01 PM
Quote: Originally posted by VoiceIHear
you know, it may just be me, but this just strikes me as pointless. I definitely won't be buying it anyway, that's for sure. But then I guess, everyone's style is different.


To each his own! Although I am surprised that someone would come to a thread with a title that very clearly states its intentions and post that the game is 'pointless' when most people posting here are doing so because they are interested in the game.
Top Secret Researcher
#42 Old 28th Jul 2010 at 6:18 PM
Quote: Originally posted by tjstreak
Actually, there were many plagues before the development of modern medicine, and some after. Think of the influenza pandemic of the early 20th century. The Great Plague took place during the 14th Century and led to much social upheaval. (Richard the Second dealt the the Watt Tyler uprising which was one of the consequences of the plague -- which in turn gave poor Richard delusions that he was capable of governing.)

Something the don't like teaching in high school history classes: Native Americans were hit with major plagues (in particular small pox) after the arrival of Europeans. The reason the Puritains were in Salem is because disease killed off 90% of the native population.


Yes, of course there were plagues before then and after, which is why I used quotation marks around plague. We think of the horrible plagues that devastated Europe and decreased the population by huge percentages, occurring every few years. Those were later. Prior to that, illnesses occurred and even influenza was deadly. Compared to the later middle ages, the epidemics early were nothing.




Quote:
The early medieval period was pretty awful, too. Lots of plagues, pillaging and the like. Keep in mind that the Roman legions were also the police force -- when they left society had a total political, economic and social collapse. It was a disaster. Britain's population finally recovered to its 5th century levels in the 15th century. That's a 1000 year depression! By the way, I fully expect a Sims Medieval to have Vikings running around, in horned helmets no less.


Yep, exactly why it was referred to as the Dark Ages.

Vikings?? LOL I hope not! Besides, EA seems to run away from anything that might cause bodily injury to the Sims other than fire. Although they did add arsonists so getting close. Of course, Humble was part of WoW at one time so maybe his hacking and slashing blood will bleed out into a sims game. It might be cool if done right but I have no doubt EA will make it cheesy. Remember those silly vampires with that stupid walk in Sims 2? Oy!

Yes, 12th century is usually what games go for when they use a medieval theme. I read Pillars of the Earth and I liked much of it..but the heroes were too stupid and the bad guys too crazy for me! I really became tired of the ups and downs. Reminded me too much of those kids books...Series of Unfortunate Events. I almost expected to see...'But unfortunately' and the 'But fortunately' in the text. It did, however, capture the beauty, strength, and corruption of the middle ages quite well.

There is a really good book out there, rather obscure, called Time Travel to the Middle Ages, or something like that. I have it on my Kindle. Its not really a novel but more a description of what you would find if you were transported into the 13th century. Very interesting read and quite detailed, even down to the items you would find in houses of the various social classes. I enjoyed it very much.

Research into the middle ages is something I had to do for my job so I am not a historian but rather a 'collector of information' in order to use it our company's current project. So I get to pick and choose rather than read it chronologically.

One of the most exciting aspects is the guilds and I would LOVE to see these in a medieval Sims game. We will see though..my expectations are quite low. A medieval sandbox where I can do my own thing would be enough for me.
Top Secret Researcher
#43 Old 28th Jul 2010 at 6:19 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Robodl95
"Something the don't like teaching in high school history classes: Native Americans were hit with major plagues (in particular small pox) after the arrival of Europeans. The reason the Puritains were in Salem is because disease killed off 90% of the native population."

Really? I learned all about that in SS this year.


Yeah, I learned about that in high school too..and that was a long time ago. The white folks gave the NA blankets infected with smallpox on purpose. Very sad commentary on my countrymen.
Forum Resident
#44 Old 28th Jul 2010 at 6:32 PM
Let's not forget the everyday life things like in the middle ages:

No buttons as fasteners (until later in the middle ages) - clothes were loose, not fitted - sleeves weren't inset - sashes were used for making a waist line, etc.

Everyone drinking from one cup (not even positive if the King had his own cup in the early middle ages)

Everyone in the castle sleeping in one room, etc.

Serfdom - would anyone want to play them? There's no upward mobility. In fact, as the middle ages progressed, things just got worse for them. Until the plague killed off so much of the population that labor wasn't as cheap anymore

Now I'm not asking for, nor would I want much realism in a Sims-type game. No way should anyone expect the religious elements, the sexism, the really high death rates, etc. But I think we'll end up with more fantasy-land (fairy-tale land?) than anything that even superficially resembles the medieval period. And I'm only just talking about the look of things there. Type of clothes, tools, etc.


Caveat: I'm referring to Europe, essentially, since I can't think of any other geographic region that I've ever heard the term "medieval period" applied to, and because I think it's what most people think of. Of course, I've never said "Victorian Era" when talking about time period in American history, either. Certain names just only apply to certain regions to me.
Scholar
Original Poster
#45 Old 28th Jul 2010 at 7:45 PM
Pillars of the Earth was so spot on about the building for the Catherdral. I read it (a long time ago) after taking a Medieval Art & Architecture class but I wished I had read it before or while taking that class since it made all the building terms and advances fall in to place for me so I finally understood how all those things applied to building construction.

Time Travel to the Middle Ages sounds interesting. I have B&N gift card I haven't used so maybe I'll go looking for that book. Looking into people's day to day existence on another time period can be interesting and often surprising.

Since its a game it can be historically "lite" and still be acceptable to me. Anyway, if they give us the objects, clothing, careers (tjstreak put up a good career list on another thread) etc, than we could always play whatever stories we wanted to like start our own town guilds or have warring factions or whatever. I have to admit I would like it if my Sims could have a Jousting Tournament.
Top Secret Researcher
#46 Old 28th Jul 2010 at 8:34 PM
Yep, we can play it the way we want. In my Sims 2 games, I had serfs and middle class merchants and nobles. They were not allowed to intermarry although if they had high chemistry they could have affairs. I used an autonomous mod by TwoJeffs and I found it funny when the Lord of the manor stopped by a serf's house while the man of the house was away working and flirted with his wife who was home taking care of the baby. He stopped by regularly after that but always when the husband was away, thank goodness. I also had a mod that allowed engagements between children so was able to 'betroth' my Sim children at young ages. Very fun!

There is a set of rules for a Royal Kingdom challenge. I rewrote them into my own rules. For example, the third son of nobles always joined the church, either as a monk or a priest. I had a monastery they would move to. I had a brothel but the rule was that any children born to the 'ladies' would go to a nunnery. Children of nobles would be adopted into the middle class by the time they were teens or raised by their father's family as companions to their other children. Middle class and lower children would become laborers or apprentices to craftsman, depending on the father's status. It worked well! Hopefully we will still have this latitude in the new game.
Scholar
Original Poster
#47 Old 28th Jul 2010 at 9:46 PM
Rian90 - Wow, you're TS2 medieval town and Royal Kingdom Challenge sounds like it was really fun! EA take note!
Top Secret Researcher
#48 Old 28th Jul 2010 at 10:34 PM
Yeah, I really miss it. I pulled out the notebook where I kept my rules and lists of families..makes me very nostalgic. I am in the process of recreating another Sims 2 hood in my Sims 3 game, a modern one. And now I want to recreate my medieval families. I really hope this new standalone allows you to do that.

I play very slowly so my generations age slowly. I had found a match for my young prince among the daughters of the Lords. Of course, the Lord had to smooze the king to get his friendship high enough but there was also chemistry between the two teens. Then Sims 3 came out and I stopped playing it. Of course I had so many noble young ladies and not enough men so probably a good thing. At least in Sims 3 I can immigrate a few in.

I would love to see classes in a medieval game so that Sims were nobles, middle class, or serfs/peasants. They could possibly do it like they did the social groups in Sims 2 and have different clothing styles for each group. What I fear is careers like some that were custom made for Sims 2 where one could start as a peasant and become a King. How cheesy is that? LOL Hopefully, we will have a Twallan who can make mods so we can freeze our sim at one level.
Test Subject
#49 Old 29th Jul 2010 at 12:31 PM
It has been announced on TSR!
It seems we are going to have two diffrent kinds of Christian churches competing with each other, meaning that EA did NOT choose the easy route!
And we can be spies, priests, wizards, blacksmiths, priests and some other things.
http://www.thesimsresource.com/news...post/post/18586

And there's a screen of a torture device! :o
Theorist
#50 Old 29th Jul 2010 at 1:15 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Sim-brother
It has been announced on TSR!

DUDE, GET OUT OF HERE!!
Thats made my day!! OMG!

#BlairWitchPetition
TS3 NEEDS: TENNIS COURTS > BUSES > PIGS/SHEEP
Can't find stuff in build and buy mode? http://www.nexusmods.com/thesims3/mods/1/?
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