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MTS Movie Night #3 - posted on 20th Oct 2017 at 10:54 PM
Replies: 77 (Who?), Viewed: 44755 times.
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Theorist
#26 Old 21st Oct 2013 at 9:02 PM
To play devil's advocate though, I'm not sure there's a significant rise in suicides right now that can be attributed to bad jokes, unless you count lengthy combat deployments overseas and the economic downturn as humor. It's a fairly well known phenomena that economic recessions have a correlation with suicide rates, add in PTSD cases and broken families and you're probably headed in clearer direction than implying that "go kill yourself" is some sort of magical talisman that causes or increases suicide rates.
It's in bad taste and bad humor, but it's nowhere near as catastrophic in people's lives than actual events and activities that have much more of an impact on people.

I guess I'm just looking at it like a racist joke or a joke about a disability - it's not a good thing, but ultimately I think it's offensive to imply that a racist joke is worse than actual racial inequality and joking about a disability might be in bad taste but it's nowhere near as traumatic as actually losing a limb. And since those things are vastly differing in impact, I'm a bit uncomfortable with the sort of equivocation that I think might be going on here. A bad joke is a bad joke, but words don't hurt people. Circumstances hurt people. If people's feelings are hurt so much that "go kill yourself" is treated as some sort of command then I'm not going to look at the words that were said, I'm going to look at the exigent circumstances that made words suddenly so traumatic in the first place.
Field Researcher
#27 Old 22nd Oct 2013 at 2:08 AM Last edited by ijustneedsomeeyes : 22nd Oct 2013 at 2:14 AM. Reason: it is an article, not a post x.x
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistermook
To play devil's advocate though, I'm not sure there's a significant rise in suicides right now that can be attributed to bad jokes, unless you count lengthy combat deployments overseas and the economic downturn as humor. It's a fairly well known phenomena that economic recessions have a correlation with suicide rates, add in PTSD cases and broken families and you're probably headed in clearer direction than implying that "go kill yourself" is some sort of magical talisman that causes or increases suicide rates.
It's in bad taste and bad humor, but it's nowhere near as catastrophic in people's lives than actual events and activities that have much more of an impact on people.

I guess I'm just looking at it like a racist joke or a joke about a disability - it's not a good thing, but ultimately I think it's offensive to imply that a racist joke is worse than actual racial inequality and joking about a disability might be in bad taste but it's nowhere near as traumatic as actually losing a limb. And since those things are vastly differing in impact, I'm a bit uncomfortable with the sort of equivocation that I think might be going on here. A bad joke is a bad joke, but words don't hurt people. Circumstances hurt people. If people's feelings are hurt so much that "go kill yourself" is treated as some sort of command then I'm not going to look at the words that were said, I'm going to look at the exigent circumstances that made words suddenly so traumatic in the first place.


I never meant that "go kill yourself" caused more suicides, I said it was in poor taste at this time. Like how people wouldn't get offended by somebody pretending to sneeze as a joke, but if you did that back at my old high school during the whole swine flu thing, the teacher would have flipped on you.

Of course the joke isn't worse, but it is simply in bad taste to make light of something that is currently happening that is most definitely not light at all. Rape jokes, for example, are not worse than rape, but by joking about it, you are making rape look like it's just an everyday life thing that everybody accepts and you are taking the negative power away from the word "rape" and thus, the action too.

Here's an article that kind of tells what I mean:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/art...9766-The-R-Word

When noregen hacks are not enough...you know what you must do. (RIP Mootilda , pay your respects in the thread and in her guestbook.)
Field Researcher
#28 Old 23rd Oct 2013 at 1:05 AM Last edited by Gutterfly : 23rd Oct 2013 at 1:29 AM.
I don't think I've ever heard it as a joke, but certainly an insult. Related: "Why haven't you killed yourself?", as a mocking question regarding this or that perceived "trivial" or tragic aspect of the recipient's life. It's not something I would ever say to a person as I believe that it is hurtful and particularly likely to be a tipping point for some. I'm also one of those who would never "jokingly" wish death on someone as personally I find that a very serious comment or thought, not to be messed with. In certain circles it would neither surprise nor offend me, but neither of those are things that I would be comfortable saying or laughing at.

That sort of language doesn't naturally occur to me to use, but it would be unfair of me to impose my own culture and upbringing upon someone without considering what has led them to the reflexive use of slurs or controversial phrasing. Obviously I would challenge it, but it wouldn't cloud my opinion of the person unless they were particularly aware of the risk of offense before saying it. In other words it's not really their fault for lacking the perceptive or social abilities needed to comprehend why some things are not funny to specific individuals or are held as offensive in the herd. Socio-economic background tends to have a lot to do with the vocabulary we grow up around, leading to jarring moments when we move into a more diverse environment such as high school. Maybe not so much with "go kill yourself", but definitely with race and disability slang. Couple that with the above issues and you have one student who will really take time to change their phrasing and another who has the awful experience of studying around them and their trigger-mouth.
Theorist
#29 Old 23rd Oct 2013 at 5:17 PM
I don't think it's appropriate as a joke. It's not appropriate as an insult. Telling someone to kill themselves is never appropriate under any circumstance.

However, I am, admittedly, an asshole. There are people I would love to say that to, and mean it. Mostly right-wing talking heads, a few in particular. Occasionally a stranger who may have a bumper sticker (or worse, a personally hand-written message on their rear window) that projects a vitriolic social/political belief that I vehemently disagree with. Of course, I restrain myself from making such comments, 1) because it could be perceived as a threat which would lead to undesired legal consequences on my part, 2) I feel it would be a fruitless effort because I'm sure they've already had thousands of people telling them they should off themselves and they haven't done it yet, and 3) I'm not that inappropriate. As a testament to my assholiness, there have been people (of the type I've previously described) who have suffered an untimely passing, and rather than any kind of sympathy towards the victim or his family, my thoughts immediately went to, "it could not have happened to a better person."

So I may be an asshole, but not big enough of one that I'd ever tell someone to their face to kill themselves even if I really do believe that would be doing society a favor.

Resident wet blanket.
Lab Assistant
#30 Old 23rd Oct 2013 at 5:34 PM
Maybe I've been on tumblr for too long, but I've seen way too many people deeply affected by being told to kill themselves to just not respond to this topic. You just don't do it. Ever. You don't know the mental state of the person you're talking to, especially online so for some someone else confirming their need to die even in poorly thought out jest is the tipping point that ends everything.

If love is what saves all the creatures then why can't I hear them howl?
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Alchemist
#31 Old 26th Oct 2013 at 1:29 PM
...i...thought it was just common knowledge to anyone who sat down and thought about it long enough that people who are hiding behind the "joke" excuse are just attempting to disguise the fact that they are a failed human being in order to remain socially accepted by all the people theyve offended/alienated through their failure to be a decent human.

as with any other wildly inappropriate "joke", the "joke" is just a social antic concocted in an attempt to save face for mistakenly (or stupidly) airing their horrible thoughts/ideas. rape "jokes", for example, really arent about making light of a serious situation to, through the therapy of humor, help ease the pain of those who have suffered at the hands of it. theyre about douchebags being cruel to women and trying to mask/rescind their inherent misogyny through saying its not a serious statement. which is, simply put, a lie.

what people like them dont realize (because of their status as a failed human being), is that jokes are self-evident, 99.9% of the time. you dont need to tell anyone that youre joking if you are, truly, joking. they will recognize it, or they will laugh after it is made obvious to them if they didnt quite recognize it before. humor is one of those worldwide things that we all share in as a species, its hardly a mysterious beast that occasionally arises in the dead of night for a split second after the moon peaks in the sky. people know it when they see it, and the fact that suicidal comments/goading are not recognized by successful human beings as being joke material should be a clue as to which category they truly belong in.
(even the people who MAKE that "joke" dont laugh at it. its not funny. its not a joke.)

"The more you know, the sadder you get."~ Stephen Colbert
"Science literacy is a vaccine against the charlatans of the world that would exploit your ignorance."~ Neil DeGrasse Tyson
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." ~ Jon Stewart
Mad Poster
#32 Old 26th Oct 2013 at 2:52 PM
While humor is a worldwide thing, it doesn't mean that people have the same kind of humor. It often comes down to how the joke is presented. One person will think something is funny, while another will think the same thing is not funny or even offending. Depending on the culture, what is a perfectly acceptable joke in one part of the world might be taken very seriously in another part of the world. It also depends on the personality and background of the individual person, particularly the one the joke is on. While they might recognize that it is a joke, that doesn't mean they'll think it's funny.

A lot of jokes are lies in some form. They can also be truths, usually exaggerated or something we all do and find funny when pointed out.

I know someone who can deliver any kind of joke (or lie) with a straight face. When he says "I'm just joking" I can't even be sure if that's a joke or lie. It's kinda creepy... I know it's his way of joking around, but when he makes things sound true even if they aren't, then that's not my kind of humor.
Test Subject
#33 Old 8th Nov 2013 at 11:20 PM
I really don't like it....We have a high suicide rate here, in Ireland.

I think it's pretty rude and kinda sick to say that....I'd rather just be told to simply F off or somethign like that.
Test Subject
#34 Old 1st Dec 2013 at 5:26 PM
no its not a joking matter or a line somone should cross
Scholar
#35 Old 9th Dec 2013 at 7:20 PM
Once I saw an article on Buzzfeed talking about this girl's self-injury Tumblr. The article was fine, not prejudiced, etc. But the comments ranged from "this girl's just a teenager, she can't possibly have depression" to "if you say you're going to kill yourself then just do it already, and stop procrastinating. We're sick of hearing from you." At the time I was already feeling suicidal and thought, well, I really should kill myself! It seems I'm just pissing everybody off by still existing! What's more, no one wants to hear about my problems, because they aren't seen as legitimate, so I should just not tell anyone and kill myself instead. So basically I know firsthand that if you are already in that place it seems perfectly reasonable that you "should" kill yourself because you're just annoying everyone. And that makes the 'jokes' and insults very non-acceptable.

“Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.”
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Instructor
#36 Old 18th Dec 2013 at 1:30 AM
I think encouraging self harm or suicide in any situation is completely unacceptable.

Personally, if someone told ME to kill myself, I don't think it would have very much of an effect on me. That being said I have been suffering from depression and anxiety over the past few years and (unfortunately) some of you may know, suicide has crossed my mind. However I am currently on anti-depressants and getting my life back together. Okay that's enough rambling on about my personal life. Back to the topic, it wouldn't affect me because I know better than to respect the opinion of some asshole who thinks it's acceptable to cross that line. I know there are plenty of innocent folk who would be greatly affected by such a statement and therefore it shouldn't be said. Ever.

I don't think it's in any of our place to comment about a person's life worth. I think it's acceptable to insult someone's actions in certain situations. (Ex: What you said was extremely rude. What you did just now was reckless and irresponsible.) But I personally believe that making generalized negative statements such as "you don't deserve to be loved" or "you're worthless so you should kill yourself" should never be acceptable regardless of the situation or to whom they are directed at.
Lab Assistant
#37 Old 27th Jan 2014 at 4:57 AM
unacceptable
i have been through depression and self-harm and someone saying that to me is really offending
once this asshole at my school said for me to kill myself and i got really offended by that and then he said it was some online joke and i don't even think thats funny i think it is really offending to people who self-harm or have a hard life or even relatives to people who have killed themselves
Theorist
#38 Old 28th Jan 2014 at 6:49 PM
Not ever acceptable, but awfully tempting if the person has been ranting at you about overpopulation and how bad you are for having children.

Not only is it not acceptable, but it is downright evil to say that someone should kill himself or herself if he or she is depressed. No one should kill himself or herself. I hope that all of you who have been or are being affected by depression can get whatever would be beneficial for you in your situation, up to and including leaving that situation for a better one.

Pics from my game: Sunbee's Simblr Sunbee's Livejournal
"English is a marvelous edged weapon if you know how to wield it." C.J. Cherryh
Inventor
DELETED POST
21st Feb 2014 at 6:38 PM
This message has been deleted by Nysha. Reason: There, I have gallantly saved you from getting any disagrees.
Lab Assistant
#39 Old 27th Apr 2014 at 6:35 PM
Never should make a joke about this. Who finds it funny? Especially if they are depressed and worried about life,money, etc. To me its just crude.
Scholar
#40 Old 2nd May 2014 at 2:15 AM
Never alright, that's something you should NEVER tell another person to do! And who the fuck would find that funny?
Top Secret Researcher
#41 Old 2nd May 2014 at 4:04 PM Last edited by hugbug993 : 3rd May 2014 at 5:23 PM.
Well, apparently someone thinks it's funny, since they've turned into a Lurking Disagree.

ETA: I HAVE BEEN ATTACKED BY THE LURKING DISAGREE! MY LIFE IS OVER BECAUSE SOMEONE HAS DISAGREED MY POST! OBVIOUSLY MY POSITION IS COMPLETELY INVALID BECAUSE OF SOMEONE WHO'S TOO COWARDLY TO EXPRESS THEIR OPINION! D:
Field Researcher
#42 Old 26th May 2014 at 4:35 AM
Completely NOT ok, i've had people say this to me online and from a girl 5 years ago who i thought was my friend and by people who tried to cause trouble, it just made me feel so horrible, alone, sad and a little destroyed, teenagers have commited suicide or tried to because of such comments. People who are gay especially have had such a hard time with people saying this to them and sadly they ended up doing it, i concider any vicious and spiteful words and behavior as bullying, i do not care how little or hugely rude they act because i've had problems and still have problems with bullying even when i'm 23 now i consider any rude behavior with the intent to upset or hurt someone as bullying.
Field Researcher
#43 Old 30th Jun 2014 at 7:58 AM
Yeah I would have to agree that it's not funny at all or even acceptable to say. Death is not something to play around with and you just never know how the other person will take it. However, I do not understand why people commit suicide. I've been through absolute hell in my life and I never actually considered it. Maybe it has to do with my irrational fear because I did come really close that one day but people need to have a thicker skin. Again I know life is tough trust me I've been there but come on why would you do such a permanent thing to yourself? It makes me so sad and then you leave your loved ones behind. It's kinda selfish you know.
Alchemist
#44 Old 1st Jul 2014 at 11:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drakesecaravdis
Yeah I would have to agree that it's not funny at all or even acceptable to say. Death is not something to play around with and you just never know how the other person will take it. However, I do not understand why people commit suicide. I've been through absolute hell in my life and I never actually considered it. Maybe it has to do with my irrational fear because I did come really close that one day but people need to have a thicker skin. Again I know life is tough trust me I've been there but come on why would you do such a permanent thing to yourself? It makes me so sad and then you leave your loved ones behind. It's kinda selfish you know.


I highly doubt people who suffer from depression or Schizophrenia or other mental illnesses such as these still consider everything that a mentally healthy person like me and you would consider before doing such a thing. They are ill and they can't be blamed for it, and to a depressive person, even a mild joke like this could trigger such a permanent response to it.

And you don't just suddenly develop thicker skin. It takes a lot of bad things which you have to survive to get that, and some people just can't handle the pressure. I don't, in any way, sympathize with these teenagers that kill themselves because of broken hearts, or middle-aged people who catch their spouse cheating or run out of money for taxes, but there are certain cases where nobody is the wiser and it just happens, as a result of something bigger than those ordinary heartaches we might experience.

Evil doesn't worry about not being good. - The Warden, Dragon Age Origins
Top Secret Researcher
#45 Old 3rd Jul 2014 at 5:59 AM
I concur with Rawra (welcome back, by the way!) that people with mental illness will not necessarily react to things in the same proportions that other people do. Depression, specifically, can amplify a person's perception of the severity of any actual burden. So, it presents as if it were a personality or attitude problem, and it can sometimes be triggered by events or circumstances -- and yet, it's a disease of a physical organ. I don't get why telling a person with depression (or any other serious disease) to kill herself would be a joke. I don't mean that everyone should walk on eggshells around depression patients. What I mean, rather, is that I don't get the joke. If it's not funny, then I think that not much would be lost if people passed up the opportunity to say it.

Ronnie de Noube - Comic and Blog; Sim National Laboratories and our Protein Folding Team.
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Field Researcher
#46 Old 6th Jul 2014 at 12:39 AM Last edited by Drakesecaravdis : 6th Jul 2014 at 12:51 AM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawra
I highly doubt people who suffer from depression or Schizophrenia or other mental illnesses such as these still consider everything that a mentally healthy person like me and you would consider before doing such a thing. They are ill and they can't be blamed for it, and to a depressive person, even a mild joke like this could trigger such a permanent response to it.

And you don't just suddenly develop thicker skin. It takes a lot of bad things which you have to survive to get that, and some people just can't handle the pressure. I don't, in any way, sympathize with these teenagers that kill themselves because of broken hearts, or middle-aged people who catch their spouse cheating or run out of money for taxes, but there are certain cases where nobody is the wiser and it just happens, as a result of something bigger than those ordinary heartaches we might experience.


I'm not mentally healthy actually, far from it despite my doctor's disbelief. I know I was probly not born that way but I became that way after a while. I have had plenty of situational depression and my poor childhood messed my head up in ways I can't explain. If it wasn't for my irrational fear (and maybe depressing music) I probly would have been gone years ago. Maybe that's eventually why I developed GERD which can be hard on me especially since I refuse to take medicine and I don't do well with physical discomfort so sometimes it's still hard. I'm not blaming them really. Like I said I've been through hell so I get it if life sucks but they need to realize that as bad as life is things can just get so much worse if you give up on life completely. I made up a quote "life is scary but death is a nightmare that will never end" You could end up in a miserable afterlife/new life (if reincarnation is possible) or even if the small chance happens that you cease to exist your loved ones are left with that nightmare.
Once you do it you can't take it back.
So of course I know that you don't just develop thicker skin but if their life is so bad that they're considering suicide they have to think that they've survived this far why stop here? If they can't survive alone then they need to get as much help as possible. However, in many cases that I've seen it's like the examples you put.
Alchemist
#47 Old 6th Jul 2014 at 11:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drakesecaravdis
So of course I know that you don't just develop thicker skin but if their life is so bad that they're considering suicide they have to think that they've survived this far why stop here? If they can't survive alone then they need to get as much help as possible.


That's what depression is, my friend. Pessimism in its rawest form. They can't see the bright side, the fact that they've survived this far. That's the whole point of what I've said.

Evil doesn't worry about not being good. - The Warden, Dragon Age Origins
Field Researcher
#48 Old 6th Jul 2014 at 5:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawra
That's what depression is, my friend. Pessimism in its rawest form. They can't see the bright side, the fact that they've survived this far. That's the whole point of what I've said.

Even though they can't see the bright side, you would think they'd never consider something so scary. They don't know where they will end up after. I came to realize that life is the lesser of two evils in my darkest days. Maybe they have more courage than I but still let's get to the scary part when it's our time. I just don't understand why people take death so lightly. I don't even wanna die when I'm supposed to let alone end it early. I couldn't imagine anything worse than that and I've been through A LOT. Idk I guess maybe they're not aware of what death really is, maybe they think they know where they're going to go but they need to realize that they don't know. None of us know what it's going to be like but I can be sure of one thing it's scarier than anything life can throw at us. What could be worse than not living anymore? The craziest part is many suicide attempters that I've seen, their life is just beginning. I guess I can sorta understand if you're as chronologically as old as me or older but if you're a teenager you've got much more to look forward to.
Alchemist
#49 Old 6th Jul 2014 at 9:11 PM
^You're explaining this life vs death thing as if those people actually take it into consideration. They are ill, is that clear enough for you? Mentally. Ill. Unhealthy, if you will. Deranged is an offensive word, but maybe that would make it more obvious. They need treatment, not philosophies about why death is a horrible place where the big bad wolf will eat you, 'cause that's exactly the kind of place they're seeking. They're seeking an end to the pain they're experiencing, and death is the only way that seems good to them.

Evil doesn't worry about not being good. - The Warden, Dragon Age Origins
Top Secret Researcher
#50 Old 6th Jul 2014 at 9:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drakesecaravdis
... they have to think that ...

People aren't very good at thinking what other people tell them they have to think. More specifically, people with depression aren't very good at thinking encouraging or philosophical thoughts that other people tell them they have to think. It's a characteristic of the condition, part of what distinguishes it from merely being in a bad mood.

Ronnie de Noube - Comic and Blog; Sim National Laboratories and our Protein Folding Team.
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