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Mad Poster
#26 Old 21st Nov 2013 at 4:11 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Original_Sim
Both parties are equally responsible for the conception. But since the birth (or abortion) is up to the woman alone, she shouldn't be expected to benefit from child support...................................................

If the woman is allowed to opt out of parenthood by having the abortion, the man should have an option to opt out of parenthood as well. I understand that child support is not the same as raising the child, but it's still making someone do something they do not want. If a woman doesn't want an abortion, she has a choice. If she doesn't want to give birth, she has a choice.

The man deserves to have a choice too.

'Making someone do what they do not want" - it's called being an adult, the land where we do things all the time that aren't easy or fun. As others have already said, men can wear a condom - problem almost completely solved. And supposedly over 30% of men who owe child support don't pay it, so I think you're getting excited over nothing. My stepdaughter's ex has never given her one cent and they lived together for 4 years.
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Née whiterider
retired moderator
#27 Old 21st Nov 2013 at 4:28 PM
Quote: Originally posted by hugbug993
Over here, we also have a similar problem with Mens Rights Activists. They claim that women are evil shrews who will marry them and take their children, not allowing them to gain custody because the world is misandrist and hates men. They also say that women are evil because they will get themselves pregnant and then force the guys to pay child support for children they didn't want.
F4J aren't doing it out of mischief, as far as I'm aware - they genuinely do believe that the system is unfairly balanced and, to be honest, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they're right. They don't paint women as the villains of the story, it's the courts.

What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact.
Top Secret Researcher
#28 Old 21st Nov 2013 at 4:38 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Original_Sim
Again, if the woman didn't want to get pregnant, she could have had:

-Her tubes tied
-Taken the pill
-Refrained from having sex

If a man does not want a child and does not want to pay child support, he is told to use a condom or refrain from having sex. But if a woman is faced with two choices---abortion or birth---she is not lectured for her choices before conception.

The double standard is glaringly obvious.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Ever heard of slut-shaming? Or ever been to a "crisis pregnancy center"?

Quote:
So facing the consequences of your actions is being an adult, correct? In that case, the woman should also be told to "be an adult" and go through with the pregnancy and have the child. I'm pro-choice and believe that a woman should not be forced to have a child if she doesn't want to. But I believe that a man should have the same option.


So women should be forced to have children because men have to pay child support, thus leading to an increase in child support?

Hey, mind answering my questions from before? Like, if a man rapes a woman, is it unfair for him to pay child support because he didn't choose to have a child? Or, why are you considering monetary compensation the same as the possibility of losing your life and health?
Top Secret Researcher
#29 Old 21st Nov 2013 at 4:43 PM
Still not answering my questions.

Because
1. Women get enough of that as it is
2. "Should men pay child support for children they didn't want" is a question about men, not women, so we're focusing on men. This is as silly as crocobaura wondering why people were talking about the parents' rights when she said that parents had no rights compared to the child.

Also, "you need to pay money for 18 years for not wearing a condom" is nowhere near "You deserved to get raped for wearing a mini-skirt." Learn some feminism before you whine.
Top Secret Researcher
#30 Old 21st Nov 2013 at 4:52 PM
You said that women don't get shamed for their pre-conception choices. Slut-shaming is shaming a woman for having sex (or looking like she wants to have sex, so anything short of and including wearing a burka). And we get plenty of that. I regularly get mistaken for a thirteen-year-old, and I STILL get that. So yes, women do get shamed for their pre-conception choices. You idiot.

On this thread, the topic is men. So we're not talking about women. So shut up or make a new topic.

Yes, rape is relevant. If a man should not have to pay child support because he didn't choose to have a child, then that means a rapist should not pay child support because he didn't choose to. Is that what you're saying? If not, then explain the difference.
world renowned whogivesafuckologist
retired moderator
#31 Old 21st Nov 2013 at 4:53 PM
Mod Hat On:

If you can't debate without name-calling, then please step away from the thread.

my simblr (sometimes nsfw)

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Panquecas, panquecas e mais panquecas.
Top Secret Researcher
#32 Old 21st Nov 2013 at 4:57 PM
I am not saying that "put on a condom" is slut-shaming. I am saying that women get slut-shamed for wearing make-up, so we have the "shaming women for their pre-conception choices" down pat. You're whining that "put on a condom" is unfairly shaming a man's conception choices while women can get rape or death threats for having sex, and then saying that women aren't shamed enough.

Seriously, are you misinterpreting me on purpose? Because I can't imagine someone unintelligent enough to actually mistake what I'm saying.

And yes, I'm asking about a scenario where a woman gets raped and then seeks child support from the rapist.
Site Helper
#33 Old 21st Nov 2013 at 5:08 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Mistermook
Playing devil's advocate, what if the man was led to believe that he was engaged in contraception? What if the woman said, "I'm on the pill, don't use a condom" and she wasn't using any form of contraception?
If you are unable to trust your partner, then you need to take precautions. The child should not be penalized because their mother lied and their father was gullible.
Top Secret Researcher
#34 Old 21st Nov 2013 at 5:08 PM
Yes, that is absolutely true. Both sexes have options to avoid conception. But after conception, men do not have the option to prevent birth. That's because they don't get pregnant. So unless they want to murder it after birth, they need to make their choices before conception. Would you prefer it if men have the option to kill the infant after birth so that they don't have to pay child support?

And since it's obvious that you don't understand the concept of "women get terribly treated by society for having sex, so it's not true that only men get yelled at for their conception choices", I'm just going to leave that up to someone who has telepathy and can get past whatever mental block makes you unwilling to understand that.

Also, I had another question. Are you saying that the possibility of death during pregnancy and childbirth is equal to having to pay for a child?
Née whiterider
retired moderator
#35 Old 21st Nov 2013 at 5:09 PM
They both have options to prevent pregnancy. And therefore, when both of them choose not to take advantage of those options, both of them should take responsibility for the outcome.

What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact.
Mad Poster
#36 Old 21st Nov 2013 at 5:11 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Original_Sim
So facing the consequences of your actions is being an adult, correct? In that case, the woman should also be told to "be an adult" and go through with the pregnancy and have the child. I'm pro-choice and believe that a woman should not be forced to have a child if she doesn't want to. But I believe that a man should have the same option.

If she gives birth, it is her choice. Since---like you said---a man cannot go through the pain of giving birth, he should not even be held accountable. She knows (or should know) the consequences of having sex, the consequences of getting pregnant, the consequences of having an abortion and the consequences of giving birth.

If a man is going to be lectured about safe sex practices, so should the woman. They both had sex.

Another way to look at it is - this man who knows he doesn't want to have children is about to have sex with a woman. Since he knows in advance that he's not down with having a child, he should handle his own birth control needs. Because babies result from male-female sexual intercourse. It seems like you're saying that after the deed has been done and a pregnancy has resulted, then the whole responsibility thing kicks in and it's all on the female now to decide whether or not to have an abortion. And if she decides to continue the pregnancy, she now has complete responsibility for the resulting child. And, yes, at that point the man doesn't really have much say anymore.
Which is why the man has to act back in the beginning when he did have choices and control.
Top Secret Researcher
#37 Old 21st Nov 2013 at 5:19 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Original_Sim
But is abortion considered taking responsibility of the outcome?


By not bringing a life into the world that some poor, innocent, non-condom-using man would have to pay for? Why, yes. Unless you WANT a man to pay child support for it. Or to be able to kill the infant after birth so that he doesn't have to pay child support.

Quote:
But if the woman doesn't want to go through the pain of labor or experience the psychological and physiological side-effects of abortion, she should handle her own birth control as well.


Yes, but this is a thread about men paying child support, so it isn't the focus of the thread to talk about it. Make another thread if you want to talk about it.
Top Secret Researcher
#38 Old 21st Nov 2013 at 5:28 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Original_Sim
Let me ask, why are we assuming that it's the man who didn't put on the condom? It's possible to get pregnant even if the man did wear a condom. Why not assume that the woman did not take the pill.

Again, the double standard creeps up. If a woman gets pregnant, it's the man's fault. Well, gosh. Did she not have sex too?


Yes. But abortion is possible in the woman's case. And you know what? It's also possible to get pregnant on the pill. In fact, it's possible to get pregnant if you're on the pill and using a condom. It's called a Hail Mary.

Not to mention that not using a condom is just silly, because of the whole diseases thing. The pill can't protect you from that.

Also, there have been cases where men put on condoms and then take them off halfway through. So if a woman doesn't use the pill because she thought the guy was wearing a condom, and the guy took off the condom, then does that mean that the guy shouldn't pay child support because she wasn't on the pill?

Quote:
You keep bringing up rape even though it isn't the focus of this thread.


You're asking if men should pay child support. That includes men who conceive during rape. And you haven't answered that question, either. If a woman chooses to keep her child, conceived in rape, then should the rapist pay child support? By what you're saying, he shouldn't, because when you rape someone you aren't choosing to have a child.

In fact, I had a lot of questions you didn't answer. I wonder why.
Top Secret Researcher
#39 Old 21st Nov 2013 at 5:40 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Original_Sim
Your point?

Even if they were double-bagging it, she still could have gotten pregnant and it still would have been partly her fault. They both had sex. Abortion being an option doesn't excuse her poor safe sex practices.

If she really did not want to be put in the position to choose between abortion and a baby, she should have refrained from having sex. After all, isn't that what you think a man should do in order to avoid fathering a child?

If you're going to hold the sex thing over the man's head, hold it over the woman's head as well. Because they both did it. It wasn't a one-man show.


That is absolutely true. But his right to choose ends after conception. Her choices continue afterwards. At the point of conception, he no longer has a choice. Therefore, he needs to make his choice before conception, while the woman doesn't necessarily.

Unless you'd prefer that men have the option to kill the baby after birth. Would that be a good alternative for you?

Quote:
If a woman gets raped, she may choose to have an abortion, put the child up for adoption or raise the child alone. If she wanted to raise the child with her rapist (which I doubt is likely), child support would not be an issue. If se put up the child for adoption or had an abortion, child support would not be an issue.

Now if child support were on the table, would she want money from the man who raped her?


In my scenario, yes. Now answer the question and stop ducking it.
Top Secret Researcher
#40 Old 21st Nov 2013 at 5:55 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Original_Sim
Killing the baby after birth is not a "good alternative" for me. I think we can both agree on that.

Having the choice not to have a baby after conception doesn't excuse her willy-nilly attitude toward sex. If a man is going to be blamed for everything he failed to do that resulted in the pregnancy, she deserves to be blamed for everything she failed to do as well.

If she is the only one who can decide what happens after conception, she cannot choose to have the baby and blame the man for not wanting to raise it or pay child support. If she couldn't afford to raise the child herself, she could have had an abortion. If she was against abortion or (understandably) afraid to experience the side-effects of having one, she should have refrained from having sex with a man.

It all goes back to that.

If you're going to tell a man he shouldn't have had sex (or should have had safer sex), you should be telling the woman the same thing because abortion is not a contraceptive.


Wait, let me parse this.

You feel that because women can get abortions, men shouldn't have to pay child support. Because women can choose what goes on in their bodies, men are not responsible for paying for their child.

Because both partners are responsible for sex, men shouldn't have to pay child support, even though a woman having a child and raising it herself is potentially life-threatening and takes way more time and commitment than paying for a baby.

So, you think that in a situation unfairly biased to men, men are allowed to duck responsibility when the woman involved stands to lose so much more than he does just because he was equally bad at choosing not to get into it.

Quote:
It's only relevant if she chooses to have the child and raise it herself. But if she did, would she want to receive money from the man who raped her?


Like I said before, in this scenario, yes. There are women who ask the men who raped them for child support. What you think rape victims should do does not necessarily match reality. Like I said before stop ducking the question.
Née whiterider
retired moderator
#41 Old 21st Nov 2013 at 8:08 PM
Is that your beef? That you equate skipping out on child support with having an abortion? If so, that's a really callous and awareness-free opinion to hold.

What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact.
Site Helper
#42 Old 21st Nov 2013 at 8:17 PM Last edited by Mootilda : 21st Nov 2013 at 8:58 PM.
Quote: Originally posted by Original_Sim
But if the woman knows in advance that she doesn't want to go through the pain of labor or experience the psychological and physiological side-effects of abortion, she should handle her own birth control as well.
Absolutely. Both men and women must take responsibility for their decisions, including birth control and termination of their own pregnancy.

However, the topic is not women who want to have an abortion. The topic is men who do not want to support a biological child, and who want to use their desire for abortion as an excuse for avoiding paying child care when the child is born. So, all of this talk about women who want abortions is a strawman argument, and probably doesn't belong in this thread.

Yes, women have an option which men don't have. That's because women's bodies are used to gestate the child. This is not unfair, it's just the way that biology works. When and if men can find a way to prevent birth by adjusting their own bodies, taking all of the risk, and not harming the woman in any way or forcing any procedures on her body which she doesn't want, then they too should be given the right to terminate their own pregnancies.

In the situation that we are discussing. there are three people. The woman has decided to take responsibility for the child, by giving birth and providing child care. The child has a right to be supported. In our society, we have decided that the biological father must also take responsibility, and that he does not have the right to avoid responsibility by saying that he wants to force the woman to have an abortion against her will.

That seems fair to me. Yes, it's a compromise. But, it's a compromise which recognizes everyone's rights. Women have rights over their own bodies. Children have the right to be supported by their biological mother and father, unless other arrangements are made (adoption, sperm and egg donation, etc.). Men have the right to avoid conception, if they do not want to have children, but cannot force a woman to have an abortion against her will.

If one is pro-choice, then one must agree that women have the right to decide what happens to their own bodies. Therefore, abortion is honestly irrelevant to the discussion, since men cannot force a woman to have an abortion against her will (although, to be honest, men often have a say in the question of abortion; just not the final say). The question is really whether men should be forced to pay child support for children that they don't want.

Quote: Originally posted by Original_Sim
Both parties are equally responsible for the conception. But since the birth (or abortion) is up to the woman alone, she shouldn't be expected to benefit from child support.
Most of the arguments in this thread against child support seem to forget the child. Child support is not a bonus given to women for forcing men to be fathers. Child support is money given to support the rearing of one's biological child.
Scholar
#43 Old 21st Nov 2013 at 9:15 PM
You know, this really doesn't sound like giving men rights, it honestly sounds like a sick way to take rights away from women and putting them in a difficult situation where everything they can do is wrong. As if everything isn't already difficult because of the fact that she's pregnant and the man that should be helping her wants nothing to do with it. Can't we just say that men should give their child "child-support" money because it's the moral thing to do? I mean, it's his biological child we're talking about, planned or not, that still means something, doesn't it? Yes, it's unfair that woman have more of a say, but this feels like a really underhanded half-assed excuse to not be doing the parental duties he knows he should be doing. "Oh, well the baby wasn't planned." Tell me one couple that knows exactly when their planned child was conceived and maybe that will have some merit to it.

Just call me Blake! :)
Hola, hablo español también - Hi, I speak Spanish too.
Top Secret Researcher
#44 Old 21st Nov 2013 at 9:18 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Original_Sim
You are saying that if men don't want to be put in a position where they have to pay child support for a child they don't want, they have the option to refrain from having sex. Well, if women do not want to be put in the position where they have to choose between abortion and birth, they have the option to refrain from having sex as well.

The man should not be forced to pay child support if he never wanted the child to begin with, just like how a woman should not be forced to go through with the pregnancy if she isn't ready to be a mother.


Okay, you said that you're pro-choice, so you support a woman's right to abort if she chooses to. Now you're arguing that a woman should only have the right to abort if men have the right to duck out of child support. So does that mean that you only support abortion because you believe it's an equivalent to not paying child support? Or because you think supporting it will get men out of child support? Your position is full of nasty implications.

Also, you said that abortion is a traumatic experience. You're saying that abortion and child support are similar. So are you implying that child support is also traumatic? My dad says it's not, and he was in the navy, so he'd know trauma.

Quote:
I have answered your question. You can ask again if it's not the one I think it is.


Well, you seem to assume my question is "does a rape victim want child support", when in actuality my question is "If a rape victim wants child support for her child conceived in rape, does the rapist get to skip out on it". "She doesn't really want it" is not an answer to the latter question. I think you're just uncomfortable with the answer that's consistent with your position.

Quote: Originally posted by Original_Sim
If the woman has the right to avoid being a parent, why does the man not have the same right?

If the reason is purely biological (i.e. only women can get pregnant), then child support should not even be a part of the equation because child support is not a biological concept.

It's a legal and social construct.


...Huh? I have no idea what you're trying to say here. You're saying that from a purely biological point, women can avoid having children, but child support shouldn't be involved because it's not biological? You just pointed out a reason child support is different from abortion.
Site Helper
#45 Old 21st Nov 2013 at 9:44 PM
Quote: Originally posted by BlakeS5678
You know, this really doesn't sound like giving men rights, it honestly sounds like a sick way to take rights away from women and putting them in a difficult situation where everything they can do is wrong. As if everything isn't already difficult because of the fact that she's pregnant and the man that should be helping her wants nothing to do with it. Can't we just say that men should give their child "child-support" money because it's the moral thing to do? I mean, it's his biological child we're talking about, planned or not, that still means something, doesn't it? Yes, it's unfair that woman have more of a say, but this feels like a really underhanded half-assed excuse to not be doing the parental duties he knows he should be doing. "Oh, well the baby wasn't planned." Tell me one couple that knows exactly when their planned child was conceived and maybe that will have some merit to it.
For the most part, I agree with you. However, children must be supported, regardless of whether they were planned or not. Yes, some people know when they conceived. However, I don't see how that is relevant to whether the resulting child needs to be supported.

Ideally, all children would be planned and wanted by their parents, regardless of whether those parents are biological, adoptive, or other, regardless of the number of males and females who eventually decide to raise the child. However, we live in an imperfect world and children do not deserve to be discarded because they were unplanned. We've set up laws (very likely imperfect laws) to try to ensure that children are not penalized for being unplanned.
Instructor
#46 Old 21st Nov 2013 at 10:02 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Original_Sim
she shouldn't be expected to benefit from child support.


I think this is where you need to rethink your opinion on this topic. The notion that a woman is "benefiting" from child support is really absurd. It's child support, not woman support. A man is exactly 50% responsible for the biological existence of a child. Whether or not he wants it to exist is irrelevant. It exists, he is responsible for its existence, and if the mother wants to raise the child on her own, the father should still be expected to pay a nominal amount of money for that child's well being. Personal responsibility is what it's all about. And it's about responsibility to the child, not to the woman.

Plus... it's not like most child support payments are very high. Like any other kind of financial or material assistance, the payments a child might receive from child support usually do not come anywhere reasonably close to providing for that child's needs.
Site Helper
#47 Old 21st Nov 2013 at 10:06 PM Last edited by Mootilda : 21st Nov 2013 at 10:17 PM.
I'd also like to discuss terminology. If you believe that a woman has the right to decide whether or not to have an abortion, then you are pro-choice. However, if you believe that women should be forced to have abortions against their will, or penalized if they resist, then you are not pro-choice, you are pro-abortion. If you believe that women should be forced to give birth, against their will, then you are anti-abortion.

To put things into a historical context:
- There have been societies where killing an unwanted child after birth (within a limited time) was acceptable.
- There have been societies where men were given the priority on custody of the children, primarily because women were not considered to be responsible adults.
Instructor
#48 Old 21st Nov 2013 at 10:17 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Mootilda
I'd also like to discuss terminology. If you believe that a woman has the right to decide whether or not to have an abortion, then you are pro-choice. However, if you believe that women should be forced to have abortions against their will, or penalized if they resist, then you are not pro-choice, you are pro-abortion.


I think it's also worth pointing out that there's somewhat of a misnomer in the anti-abortion crowd. All too often people on that side of the fence call themselves "pro-life", but when it comes to other issues, like capital punishment, health care, food aid, etc. they almost always hold opinions that are decidedly not "pro-life".

Of all people, a Catholic Bishop actually puts it best:

Quote:
I am convinced that many so called Pro-Life groups are not really pro-life but merely anti-abortion. We heard nothing from the heavy hitters in the prolife movement in the last week when Florida last night executed a man on death row for 34 years having been diagnosed as a severe schizophrenic.


Quote:
Many priests grow weary of continual calls to action for legislative support for abortion and contraception related issues but nothing for immigration reform, food aid, and capital punishment. And, this is a big one, priests don't like unfair attacks on things they highly value and esteem, like the Catholic Campaign for Human Development and Catholic Charities and Catholic Relief Services.


http://bishopsblog.dosp.org/?p=5837
Instructor
#49 Old 21st Nov 2013 at 10:22 PM
Just because you don't "want" to have a responsibility, that doesn't automatically emancipate you from fulfilling it.
Top Secret Researcher
#50 Old 21st Nov 2013 at 10:24 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Original_Sim
I do not believe that women should be forced to have abortions against their will.

But you can't have your cake and eat it too. If a woman has the option to avoid parenthood after conception (for whatever reason), a man deserves to have an option as well.


Why? You said yourself, abortion is biological and child support is legal and societal. Both genders have the biological right not to be a parent.
 
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