Millions of people believed that the world was the centre of the Universe.

The majority of the world can be wrong.

Gay marriage is a Sin in my opinion. It is Satan's imitation of God’s Creation. A mockery. But we are all sinful, we are all mockeries of who we were meant to be.

I oppose Gay relationships. The marriage licensers have their belief also, and appropriately so. While our beliefs shouldn't interfere with some parts of our lives, they will, not every day will we listen to people who tell us we are wrong even when we know that they are right. Not every time will we go with everyone else.
I know many of you will not agree with me.

The world is falling apart, not getting better.

@Deshong I feel that the reason some people (the people you don't care about, despite the Bible recommending love for enemies and blessings for tormentors) will not and can not agree with your beliefs is that you present them as facts. The way you present your beliefs smacks of 'my way or the highway' and leave no room for questions - Is your religion really that exclusionary that it discourages intelligent questioning?

In other realms of your life, outside of religion, do you accept all you are told or witness as fact or do you, like the rest of us, question things until you get an answer you can live with? If I tell you, as a fact, that Big Foot exists because I have witnessed him (I have not, but thousands say they have) or have been taught of his existence, would you not question this 'fact' until you were sure of your belief, one way or the other?

I would like to believe in something - but cannot fall into line with Christians simply because under their veneer of 'love one another' many harbor infinitesimal disregard and disdain for their fellow man whilst smugly hugging their beliefs as indisputable fact. This does not present an attractive option for those who may wish to seek a belief - the arguments laid before us here by the Christians are not encouraging any of us to change our views or to embrace yours.

Marriage licenses are required in all 50 states (I believe) before a couple can get married. They are typically obtained from a county government or a city/town government. So they can try to pull this shit that they're just not going to give anyone a license and that makes it legal, but I don't think it does. Because they are the designated marriage license providers. They're not the County/City/Town Protection from Gay Couples Boards. If clerks don't want to do their jobs, If what they are required to do is so damn offensive then they should resign. Or the moronic state governments should repeal the marriage license law since there's no way to get one.
Yeah, that's right - the fucking world is ending! Quick - go find a better country to live in! Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

BINGO! No one is "required" to do anything that they take issue with in ANY job- you're always free to leave it! If you "can't" do a required part of your job, there's an obvious solution! And I'm sure there'd be plenty of other people who'd be happy to actually do that job right!

The same reason I never understood why these so called ''refuge civil servants'' could still refuge to marry gays, because of personal believes (mostly very religious reasons). Damnit, you're employed by the society/authorities to simply execute marriages for the law and obey the rules It's not your job to judge about these laws, like it's not the taskof the police to judge during their shifts if laws are good or bad, but just to live up with them and act where possible. If you don't want these laws, just simply become political active within your political spectrum and try to get enough support within our political system. You perfectly can in our current political situation.

To further my feelings on religion and *some* believers' inability to accept questions or the views of others regarding their 'facts', let me tell you a story.

I was refused entry into the Catholic church by a priest at the time of my Confirmation because I asked the wrong questions during the religious studies classes. A mortal man (a so called instrument of God) denied me God.

I was raised an Irish Catholic and as such I was party to many horror stories about my grandparents lives under the yoke of Catholicism in an Ireland that was as poor as a church mouse for Catholics. My grandmother had 14 children because under Catholic 'law' artificial contraception was at the time frowned upon - in fact you could not buy or even see condoms in stores. Artificial contraception was a sin. This was quoted as a fact. End of story. Furthermore, Catholic wives are not allowed to refuse their husbands conjugal advances. This is also a sin and a 'fact'. Take it or leave it. All sins have to be confessed to the priest - to leave sins unconfessed was a sin. Yet another 'fact'. A catch 22 type situation if ever there was one.

Anyway .... During religious studies class I asked the priest what a woman was supposed to do about further babies if she and her husband were already too poor to feed the ones they had ... As was the case with my grandparents. They were so poor they slept on straw on the floor and their children went to school in the snow with bare feet. For this question I was told to leave the class and I was refused admission into the Catholic church on the basis of questioning 'facts'. The priest in question had a far more colourful explanation for refusing me God when my parents asked him why ... He said I was a sinner beyond saving for asking such a question and I didn't deserve God or 'salvation'. I was ten years old. So yes ... If I am dammed because I don't believe and if I am dammed because of my alternative lifestyle - all I can say is ... God started it.

My christian history is mostly catholic as well (but less hostile), still seeable on my 5 given names: my normal one (made up by my dad), two named after my fathers family (including his), two after my mothers family (including my mother, happen to be named Maria), the last four made up by father's father. That's simply tradition in the Dutch/Brabantian Catholic region. I only use my first name on practical reasons. But it's not like I've abolished them, because they're named after my anchestors.

And yes, roman catholic. I've even been baptist as a baby, another tradition and did my communion purely for fun and as interest. My parents aren't even religious. My mother left the Dutch protestant church decades ago, while her parents weren't conservative as well. My mother is an atheist and pretty fierce one, more extreme than I probably am. My dad's family is roman catholic, but not really conservative. My father is still officially member of this church, but nothing more than that. I've been in the local church several times and our couple of years ago died priest was a very nice guy (no pedophile or so), but I just never felt any connection with any religion, so I freely left the catholic church a few years ago. Must say, the Dutch catholic church is an outcast is in the catholic church itself for being very progressive and such.

Even with attending a catholic high school, my religion lessons were ''propaganda'' free. Every world-view had his neutral fair share, from christianity to new age. I simply attended this school, because it's one of the best high schools in the city and lies closes to my parent's house during my teen years. The prefix is just for pratical reasons.

I grew up in an extremist Fundamental Baptist family. They were against Catholics and gays, and they had us kids lined up on the couch, watching videos, that damned them both to hell. Oh, and they burned my toys because they were evil. (Plus, my cabbage patch doll that they burned was black. I'm still recovering from that image.) One day one of my school friends, who went to the same church as I did, told me that he wanted to take a machine gun shoot up all the non-believers. I remember how deeply disturbed I was by that, especially since he was a guy that I admired a great deal at the time for his devotion to the Church. To be honest, while I did give it my best girl scout's try, and I know the Bible better than a lot of people having actually read it, the people around me were either like programed robots and/or too hateful. The thing that got me out-casted was the rejection of Saul/Paul, as I didn't believe his 'testimony'. I think he lied as some sort of political power grab, and I disagreed with the Council of Nicea's choice to canonize his letters. I think he is a false prophet who usurped Yeshua's message, and that a lot of the legalism of modern Christianity stems from him.

My heart jagged when I read that ... The sheer insanity of burning a child's toys leaves me heartsore and utterly at a loss to imagine the validation for such a thing.

The only legal way to deny marriage licenses is if all the civil servants in the area just up and quit their jobs. This might be happening but I don't know. I don't care if couples are granted the civil licenses. Actually, since marriage is a privilege that grants legal benefits, it only makes sense that all Americans be granted equal access to civil marriage licenses. I am happy that the Supreme Court applied the 14th Amendment properly as long as they do not coerce religious institutions, which is against the 1st Amendment. It does not make sense to me why someone would sue a party that dislikes and disapproves of them to give them a service that they can get better elsewhere. I am frustrated by double standards in my area where Christian bakers are forced into making pro-gay marriage cakes while gay bakers can refuse to make pro-traditional marriage cakes. I tolerate people with all beliefs and I am not easily offended but I do not tolerate too many insults. There are many conservative bigots but there are also progressive bigots that do not see themselves as such.

Also, I am leaving the Seattle Metropolitan Area and moving rather soon to Pullman. Depending on how I like things there and how I like how Seattle will turn out in 3 years, I might apply to Grad School at UW or out of state. With a Chemical Engineering degree, I could work in Biotechnology in the Seattle area or in Petroleum in Texas.

I feel a serious need to, as a Catholic (one of, I think, three theists on this thread) apologize for Deshong and Sims2Christian's bigotry.

Rest assured that not all theists accept Church teachings without question. I'm personally pro-contraceptive, pro-gay/lesbian marriage, and pro-divorce (when necessary).

Yes. The devil CAN be manipulative. He's clearly manipulated many people into random needless prejudice and I, for one, don't like it.

And the bible says that the world is the center of the Universe. Also, the universe is made of water and there's a solid barrier separating those waters from the earth, and your god has to open a window every time rain comes through.[1] And the earth is flat and stands on pillars.[2]

The bible can be wrong.

Though it actually doesn't say anything about homosexuality in the original text.[3]

Wow, so many replies! Sorry I can't reply to everyone, but thank you all for your input. I did read everybody's posts, but it would take a very long while to reply to each and every one.

@MadameButterfly: Thank you for the links earlier. I can't believe your parents would do that. My mother told me to my face once that she would disown me if I ever blasphemed the Holy Spirit.
And my mother and step-father also told me years and years ago that they would rather I become a prostitute than a lesbian. I don't remember how that conversation came about and I don't want to.
My mother once saw self-harm scratches on my arm in church (I know it was waayyyyy immature to do it, but when I was about 17 I hated living in a place where I was forced to go to church. I actually scratched myself until I bled in several places on my arm so they would put me in a mental hospital. I wanted to escape that badly.) and when we got home my step-dad raised his hand and said, "I ought'a back hand you," with so much hatred. After a long awkward silence, my mom said I could call the police for the help but she would beat me before they got there.

I think that if the registrar's beliefs are that important to them that they could quit their job. I know the economy is bad and that they have their beliefs, but isn't it equally as wrong for them to deprive others of their rights as it is for them to issue marriage licenses against their own beliefs? In this situation they would have to quit or be sinning either way, I think.

It has been said that if you want to start an argument, talk about one of three subjects: Politics, Sex, or religion.

This thread has hit upon all three!!

@Stuart - LOL. It did, I feel like I've accomplished something special. c':

There are lots of Christian people who happen to be gay. Are they automatically bad people? Are they thereby loved less by their sky god, or just by their fellow Christians? Some say being gay is a choice, but then being straight is also a choice, so how about that free will we supposedly are meant to have?

If being straight is not a choice, then explain to me how being gay is a choice. Research shows that gender preference quite likely is hard-wired into people's brains from birth (or at least from the early teens up). In fact, all over nature there's proof of it being natural, if more uncommon (of course, if everyone was gay, then we'd probably die out, but the occasional gay couple doesn't even matter to the population growth, and in today's society gay couples can even have kids). It's not like straight people just wake up one day and decide that 'today I want to start being gay!'. In fact, a lot of gay people struggle with their feelings a lot before they even manage to admit it to themselves, much less the rest of the world.

There are reasons why so many gay people feel they have to stay in their secret closet, and one of those is all those religious people who think that just because someone doesn't like what they think is right, that somehow makes the other person less worth. Those are thoughts of hate, not of love. Why is it so difficult to accept that people are different and have different preferences? And why should you have a say over someone else's life, particularly if they're people you're never going to meet? Allowing for gay marriage doesn't affect you personally in any way (apart from being offended, but it doesn't count since you're actually offending them more than they're offending you), and the only thing your moaning about it being 'sinful' achieves, is to hurt someone else's feelings.

As for the world falling apart, it's really not. There's less war, more people have good lives with enough money to get by, and in most countries we've got laws and rights to protect us in a more or less equal way. The only thing that's making it seem worse is that we've got newspapers, internet and TV-reporters that can tell us what is happening on the other side of the planet while it happens. People's life situations were much worse in earlier times, but no one heard about it save from history books written by the winners of whatever war or crisis they reported on. Before that, slavery was okay, women didn't have rights, raping was done on a daily basis, you could burn people if they didn't have your beliefs, people died from the simplest of diseases, there were local wars all the time, a lot more people were so poor they didn't have anything to eat most days, and so on. It's just that people barely even knew what was happening in their neighboring country, and most people were illiterate and did what they were told, and thought this was how life was supposed to be.

In fact, life in the western world is so good we feel the need to find things to annoy us just to have something to complain about. Like looking down upon people who have a different gender preference. And you know what? The only reason you think it's wrong is because someone long ago decided they didn't like gay people, and may or may not have misread (or even mistranslated) some ancient texts from a time when slavery was perfectly normal, picked and chose their own version of it, and made it seem as if they were in the right all along.

I can imagine that if you've been raised to believe that 'gay is bad' then you will also think so when you're an adult. However, if you've never been led to believe that it's wrong, your views on the matter will most likely be more liberal. My parents both had a Christian belief, and I even went to sunday school for most of my childhood - but I never once heard that being gay was supposedly bad until I was well into my teens (and by then I was pretty much ready to give up foolish notions that there was a sky god, anyway). One of my friends came out of the closet not long after, and I never once felt he was a lesser person just because he liked boys. I feel it's much better to be able to be happy for people celebrating their love, than being bitter because they don't do it your way.

Sure, I sometimes (instinctively) find it a bit weird when people love someone of the same gender, but that's simply because I am straight. I also find it weird that people can possibly like avocados or mountain climbing when I don't. That doesn't mean I have the right to look down on these people for having different preferences than me, or because I don't understand why they like what they like.

People have a tendency to act upon their personal opinions as if they should be the law - and religous people in particular, because apparently they think their ancient scripture should be the law (when it's not). If they were suddenly free to act upon their opinions, now that's when the world would go to pieces.

This is not a discussion or debate on religion

While religious beliefs are clearly part of the issue, we are not going to debate religion in general. Please stay on topic, which is marriage equality and the refusal of licences.

Your entire post was amazing, but this paragraph in particular is really speaking to me.

*recycles this for future nasty arguments with homophobes*

I honestly just hope we didn't lose our money over this and that hope my husband and I can get our licenses. I mean, I feel like we were lucky to get there just in time, but surely they will still process their pending licenses. I need to see if my step-dad will take me and my husband up their sometime soon to ask about it.

Hopefully this silliness won't effect you and that everything will go smoothly. You have my best "nobody's got time for this crap anti-silly" well wishes.

What an incredible story! And just another example of why I don't belong to any "religion". When people ask I say I'm a reformed druid - I worship small shrubbery.

So in the official decision, was an actual definition of "marriage" written? And some are saying that, in the context of their reasoning, polygamy should be legal, "I want to marry 2 men and 3 women - one of whom is dead, and my dog". Which seems reasonable to ME. Isn't it legal in some places to have a "union", which gave the parties the same legal rights they had been denied? I don't understand the importance of CALLING it marriage.

As for the clerk who refused to give a man/woman couple a license; while usually I would agree with the "If you can't do you job, you're out", this is a government position. This means protected by strong unions, which will see the solution to be that the agency must hire MORE people, who ARE willing to do whatever. ALSO - the license is just ONE requirement - what about people who perform the ceremony? I had a civil ceremony; what if the person who did this did not think old people should get married (or whatever personal belief); I could see a clergy or church refusing - & it seems to me they should (don't they ALREADY?) have the right to refuse if it's against their beliefs. Hasn't there already been legal action about that? Like Catholic hospitals that refused to perform abortions - they can refuse, but then they can't get state or federal monies.

PS: I don't see the arguments against this NECESSARILY being about anti-gay sentiment, it could be more about the SLOPPYNESS of the decision, the need for sharp definition of terms, and the need to keep religious ideas out of it. Personally, it bothered me that a decades long relationship could be dis-honored (like by hospitals refusing partners as "family). If this is all about sex, I could care less. This seems to me to be more about the power of WORDS, "Marriage means THIS, YOU can't have that word". Or is anyone actually getting bent because of the legal rights, etc involved?

PPS: and I just thought of this. The difference between state & federal laws is ridiculous! So if one state says you are married (and can smoke pot), you can be NOT legal (with both items) by the feds, or if you go to another state. Or you can be married one day, then the laws are changed and boom, you're NOT married. So stupid..

1 - There is a gigantic difference between civil law and theological doctrine. The U.S. Supreme Court only ruled in the case of civil law - that individual U.S. states cannot specifically ban same-sex marriage, and that any such bans are unconstitutional and in violation of the Fourteenth Amendment. However, the Supreme Court did not (and cannot) force individual churches to perform same-sex marriages. All they are saying is that, according to civil law, same-sex marriages must be acknowledged by local, state, and federal governments.

2 - Whatever one's religious beliefs may be, they have absolutely no bearing on civil law in the United States of America. The U.S. Constitution insures the separation of church and state in the First Amendment. So any rationale that homosexuality is a "sin" simply because a religious text of one theology or another says so cannot legally be used as justification for banning homosexuality or same-sex marriage. Indeed, if certain religious texts were allowed to be used as a basis for civil law, we'd have no bacon in supermarkets, severely limited options at clothing stores, and... well... slavery.

3 - Religious doctrine aside, especially since this is an issue of civil law, the scientific, medical, psychological, pediatric, and psychiatric communities have all studied homosexuality in all its various facets for many decades. They have all concluded that it is a natural form of human sexuality that is not chosen, and that same-sex couples are just as fit to raise children as heterosexual couples. Often people say "leave science to the scientists" when discussing controversial topics lately. Well, the scientists have spoken: http://www.apa.org/about/offices/ogc/amicus/gill.pdf

4 - To those that still choose to be so viciously acerbic when contemplating LGBT issues in modern society, I just ask you this: How is your life in any way affected by two men, or by two women, getting married? Please answer at length. I'd be fascinated to read some good fiction.

Epilogue - I take some small bit of solace in the thought that in the next decade or two there will be a great film made about the struggle for equal rights for LGBT individuals. Call it the 21st Century's 'Amistad'. And the best part... Antonin Scalia will be the primary villain. And that will make me giggle.

Uh, no. Dead people and dogs don't have the legal standing to sign binding contracts, which is a little necessary for a marriage license. Neither do minors, for that matter. And the rules about incest are all based on keeping the next generation safe, so I don't think SCOTUS's ruling applies to that, so we won't have people marrying their parents or siblings.
Sure, people could marry their non-legal partners in religious ceremonies, but that wouldn't apply to legal marriage.

And as I recall, polygamy was actually heavily praised in the bible, so I don't know what the fundies are complaining about. We're getting closer to biblical marriage, where you can have 1,000 wives and 3,000 concubines! Except without things like raping female prisoners of war and forcing them to be your bride or being forced to knock up your sister in law if your brother dies.

Grammapat, aren't you married? Well, let's flip this. You want to get married, but you are disqualified from marriage because you're a straight couple. Instead, you can only get a civil union, which claims to give you all the benefits of a marriage, but it actually doesn't. You don't have a husband, you have a partner. If your partner dies and has property in another state, that state may refuse to recognize your union and charge you out the wazoo for estate taxes. If your partner gets ill and has to be hospitalized, you may not be able to see him, because only family members are allowed and the hospital only recognizes marriages. Oh, and there are all the social implications of having a partner instead of a husband, especially in the more religious circles.

But here's the question: if the word used to refer to it doesn't matter, then why call straight marriage that? If attaching the word to gay marriage is so unimportant, then why is it important to have it attached to straight marriage? So, straight marriage is hereby known as Snakeinclam. You have a snakeinclam, homosexual couples have marriage. See? Now you don't have to share your word with them homosexuals!



Actually, while they can't fire people, they can easily transfer them to new positions. Send one person off to a small room where they can do nothing but shred papers all day. No mobile devices (after all, these are important documents and must be protected), no forms of entertainment, just shredding papers. Make it clear that everyone else does their job or suffer the same fate.



Depending on the state, you can get pretty much anyone to perform the ceremony. It's easy to get ordained to perform marriages, though a state may have additional legal requirements. If you wanted a religious marriage, you could grab any willing holy person of your faith who's been ordained and have them perform the ritual.
The church can refuse, yes, but they would lose out on a lot of business that way. And it's likely that they'll lose some sort of government backing. Personally, I'm in favor of stripping away their freedom from taxes.

Meh. There is always going to be people that are against something. The USA has taken huge steps in LGBT rights, I as a gay man didn't think I would ever see legal gay marriage in all of the states in less than 10 years. If they now refuse to marry people I'm sure there are other places one can. I can't know for sure though since I'm european but I doubt everyone has stopped.

And the USA taking these steps I even noticed at home who live in Sweden. The announcement was made at the same time the annual big city festival, who is the biggest thing that happens to my city, was held and suddenly I saw LGBT/Pride flags everywhere and I mean everywhere! People on Facebook are now using that rainbow filter like crazy. And it makes me very happy because now I feel like I can open up more about myself in public and not hide as much. I have never felt like I can kiss my boyfriend in public or hold his hands, but now I can since lately there has been such HUGE positive vibes about being gay is okay.



I am a christian too. Has it ever occured to you that it was God who made each individual as they are? And in that case, if someone is gay then it was by God's will? Because being gay is not a choice my friend, it is something you are born with. It's not something you become, but something you can discover is there. There has been millions of people who are gay, bi, trans, queer etc. and hated it, some have even commited suicide because of it. The though of what family, friends and co-workers are going to say and think can be horrifying. So why would one choose to be gay if you could just be straight and not have to worry about not being accepted? Me, as a gay person, could NEVER choose to be straight. Doing it with a woman just feels wrong, not morally but sexually.

What is the difference of love between two of the same gender opposed to a man and a woman? The only difference is a few body parts.