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| A note to mesh creators regarding polygon limits |
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21st Apr 2005, 05:33 PM
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 A note to mesh creators regarding polygon limits
# 1
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Delphy
Original Poster
The Spatula Of Purity     
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Hi All, There has been some discussion both here at MTS2 and on other sites lately with regards to extremely high polygon count objects being used in the Sims 2. Some of this has been good, some bad. As the creator of the Mesh Tool, which is used by the vast majority of people to import meshes into the game, as well as writing many 3d programs including game engines in the past - and being the owner of MTS2, I want to touch on this issue. What we are seeing in the community recently is people taking a simple object - a bed for example - which would normally have less than a thousand polygons, and replacing it with one that has 20 times more. This is being done with a lot of different types of new mesh but fortunately not body meshes. A lot of these objects are taken from sites that offer free meshes online like 3d cafe, but what you have to realise is that these where designed for static rendering only. What does this mean? Well, it means they are going to be VASTLY more complex than anything would would find in a game engine - especially one like The Sims 2 where you have the potential for hundreds of objects rendering at the same time. For creators, it's easy. Just download a free mesh, without caring about the polygon count. Run it through the mesh tool and import into game. Voila! Simple as that, right? Wrong! For users, it's a nightmare. We have lots that crash, games that slow down even more than normal and it generally makes the people who try and help have a headache. My recommendation is to take low poly count objects and put them into the game and use textures to substitute for polygons. It's been done in the vast majority of other games - and there are mesh reduction tools available. At the very least, when posting up a mesh to here or another site - indicate the poly count. Just becuase you may not think it's useful to add it to your thread description doesn't mean it wont be helpful to people troubleshooting or trying to fix *your* problems. Spare a thought for the great support people here and at other sites who have to drill down into the game to figure out why it's crashing - and post the polygon count up. You can find out the polygon count easily in any 3d modelling program, and remember - if you do decide to use meshes from other sites, they must be credited at the least - and some sites don't allow distribution of thier meshes in any form, so please check before taking some high poly mesh and putting it in game. Update: I've written a new updated rcol plugin for SimPE that can be gotten from http://forums.modthesims2.com/files/simpe.rcol.zip Unzip and place in your Program Files\SimPE directory (NOT in plugins). Thanks to Motoki for the following pic: Regards, Delphy Admin - MTS2, co-creator, MTS2 Mesh tool |
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CEP Objects Database (searchable) | View latest updates/changes to MTS2 (technical) | twitter <Corsix> Why 'mod the sims 2' when you can mod 'mod the sims 2'? | The spatula of purity shall scramble the eggs of your maleficence! |
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Last edited by Delphy : 24th Apr 2005 at 08:21 PM.
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21st Apr 2005, 05:34 PM
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# 2 |
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Delphy
Original Poster
The Spatula Of Purity
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To those who think this isn't an issue - don't turn round and tell me that high polygon objects can't crash the game or cause absolutely no problems whatsoever. They do. There are some very quick code snippets that load in multiple high polygon meshes that can prove the point very adequently - and thats without the overhead of the Sims 2 AI. |
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21st Apr 2005, 05:51 PM
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# 3 |
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Nemi_89
Beautiful Girl from Norway
Join Date: Feb 2005 |
Thay dont crash my game but its getting quite solw 
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21st Apr 2005, 07:36 PM
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# 4 |
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TheSims2Master
Field Researcher
Join Date: Feb 2005 |
Cool, thanks for notify downloaders so that no one can miss this!! |
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21st Apr 2005, 07:39 PM
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# 5 | |
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trax
Test Subject
Join Date: Nov 2004 |
Quote:
this is a big problem too. i've seen numorous objects taken from e-interiors.net, where the terms of use make it so that you can't even redistribute the image of the file rendered. which gets on my nerves cause my fingers are twitching to download some of those files and adjust them to work in sims2 o_O |
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21st Apr 2005, 07:58 PM
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# 6 |
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Motoki
Instructor
Join Date: Oct 2004 |
Yes I have been noticing this too. But let anyone upload any of their stuff to another site and holy hell all breaks loose.  Hell, I've seen people who I know ripped something off from another site turn right around and tell everyone else they can't upload "their" work anywhere else. And some of these 'borrowed' items are ending up on pay sites too. |
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21st Apr 2005, 09:39 PM
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# 7 |
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Rct2mad
Field Researcher
Join Date: Mar 2005 |
Thanks for the info Delphy! |
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21st Apr 2005, 10:18 PM
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# 8 |
| Numenor |
I just want to remind to all the mesh creator (/importers) that Maxis recommends a max of 800 polygons per block. We all know how cautious is Maxis (especially with custom content  , if I may say so), but IMHO as a rule of thumb, creators should keep this limit in mind.I repeat: as a rule of thumb. Obviously, there are objects that need more detail, or have animated parts, etc., but a piano made by 65,000 polygons is an object that I'd never install in my game 
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21st Apr 2005, 10:57 PM
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# 9 |
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crazy4sims
Lab Assistant
Join Date: Sep 2004 |
i don't want to sound dumb but what are polygones and what do thay do? |
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no ears |
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21st Apr 2005, 11:08 PM
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# 10 |
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Nemi_89
Beautiful Girl from Norway
Join Date: Feb 2005 |
i dont know Dean.. but obiusly... u dont want too may of them |
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21st Apr 2005, 11:19 PM
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# 11 |
| Numenor |
All the 3D meshes are made by flat faces, or polygons: a cube has 6 polygons, a tethraedron (a pyramid) has four. Since there can't be round surfaces, they are approximated by dividing a flat surface by a certain number of times; the more subdivisions, the smoother is the surface: but the numbers of polygons become greater and greater! |
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21st Apr 2005, 11:29 PM
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# 12 | |
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Damage Inc356
Lab Assistant
Join Date: Nov 2004 |
Quote:
Thank you for adding that! I've seen soooooo much stuff from sites I KNOW don't allow it and it's only gonna be so long before the owners of these sites find out and get angry.... |
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21st Apr 2005, 11:44 PM
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# 13 |
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WDS BriAnna
Lab Assistant
Join Date: Dec 2004 |
Thank you so much for posting this, Delphy. Just wanted to add a reminder that Maxis said they shoot for 800 vertices per tile. (Yes, if you go through all their meshes they occasionally break their own rule -- but that's not an excuse to ignore vertex limits altogether.) 800 per tile. Try hard. You might go over on occasion, but as long as you're trying for 800 you'll do far better than if you don't care at all and just use any mesh you find (or model yourself silly when you could have let the smoothing round those corners, etc.). That gives you 4800 max for a bed, and don't forget to count the vertices already in the bedding! And that's 800 vertices -- not polygons. If you shoot for the Maxis 800 vertice rule, you'll end up with fewer polygons than 800. I'm looking at the stats on a 2 tile TV/entertainment thing I'm making now and it says 1323 vertices, 801 polygons. Also: a tip on how to keep yours low: Motoki mentioned that most new plants are high, but mine and Maxis' are low. Why? You don't have to make polygons for every part of the plant. Use alpha channels. Make your part out of flat planes and let the alpha do the detail. Don't make a 30 polygon leaf when you can make a square that looks identical after your texture is applied. Incidentally, this is also how my wrought iron part bed has so many times fewer vertices than most out there. It's not really wrought iron (as anyone who has recolored it knows) it's a flat plane that can be made into glass, stained glass, or solid wood or however the colorer feels inclined to color it. So see? Double points - you get to keep your vertices low AND have far more options for recolors- meaning fewer total meshes the game has to think about. BriAnna |
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Last edited by WDS BriAnna : 22nd Apr 2005 at 12:07 AM.
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22nd Apr 2005, 01:17 AM
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# 14 |
| Numenor |
Ooops! I confused polygons and vertices... (Thanks, BriAnna, for having cleared it up). Talking as a downloader, keeping the meshes within the 800 vertices limit will allow us to download and place in the lot more custom objects. |
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22nd Apr 2005, 01:38 AM
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# 15 |
| Brasstex |
I agree that mesh creators should post polygon counts from now on. Let the downloader decide if they want it. I don't think an arbitrary number like 800 is useful, but whatever, you can shoot for it, that's not the way I work. 64000 or something like that is ridiculous. Brasstex |
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22nd Apr 2005, 01:54 AM
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# 16 |
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Loverat
Slacker of Immense Slackness
Join Date: Sep 2004 |
As the proud owner of a *new mesh* folder that is now over 1.5 gb I for one am glad that the Delph has brought this to the attention of the S2 community as a whole. I have no doubt that there WILL someday be a 3D mesh creator site taking issue with their work being used not as it was intended and for profit to boot. Motoki - how true is that - they will whine about having a recolour redistributed but think nothing of ripping off the work of a 3D artist - I know which process might have taken a *little* more work lol. |
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<:3))~~ Loverat "In some cultures what I do is considered normal" www.loverat.net Check it out for other recolours & lot uploads =D |
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22nd Apr 2005, 03:22 AM
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# 17 |
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dano
Test Subject
Join Date: Nov 2004 |
The 800 vertices per tile is for objects, correct? Does anyone know if Maxis has any suggested limits for body meshes? dano |
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22nd Apr 2005, 03:45 AM
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# 18 |
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nikita489
Lab Assistant
Join Date: Jan 2005 |
Would it be possible to put a requirement to all meshers on this site that they have to show the polygon count of their objects when they post them up for download? I don't have a 3-d modelling program and even if I did, I wouldn't know where to find out what the polygon count of an object is. |
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22nd Apr 2005, 04:28 AM
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# 19 |
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pinhead
Instructor
Join Date: Sep 2004 |
Finally!! I'm glad that delphy warned mesh creators. So far, i'm not enjoying to download new meshes and is just because of this. Sometimes i saw a cool furniture but after unzipped and look into the size of that file i know that was made wrong. So, just for curiosity i export the mesh to open in milkshape and make a poly count. something so simple as a "wave" shaped bed that could use low number of verticies end up with 10 times more vertices. Is not a good way to share content. In my personal opinion, if you don't understand anything about 3d for games, don't share something without research about it. in the past couple months i started to be more careful related of custom content and i'm looking inside each of the packages that i get to make sure that was made it correctly. For me, a good content is not just beautiful for the eyes, but made it in the proper way. if you will share, be careful. |
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Last edited by pinhead : 22nd Apr 2005 at 08:40 AM.
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22nd Apr 2005, 04:49 AM
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# 20 | |
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CTNutmegger
Lab Assistant
Join Date: Nov 2004 |
Quote:
How about a show and tell for those who don't do meshing and have no idea what an object is make up of. These two pics should help explain what they are and what the problem is, the first is one of my beds, I created it from only boxes using as few polygons (triangles) as possible, it has 156 with 356 vertices. The other is a vase I did and as you can see it is made of many Polygons to get the rounded, very defined shape and has 756 with 2268 vertices. The problem is that it takes the computer a lot more time to render or show the vase than it does the bed, and the constant re-drawing that must be done in a 3D game causes it to drag. And it makes no difference if the vase is the size of a coffee cup or as large as a building (in the game), it still contains that same number of polys and takes as much time.   Hope this helps, CT :D |
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Last edited by CTNutmegger : 22nd Apr 2005 at 05:00 AM.
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22nd Apr 2005, 07:58 AM
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# 21 |
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Rct2mad
Field Researcher
Join Date: Mar 2005 |
Thanks CT! |
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22nd Apr 2005, 10:40 AM
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# 22 |
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simsjeanie
Lab Assistant
Join Date: Mar 2005 |
As only a downloader and user I would be very pleased, if one of you creators (I love your work!) could post - let's say - a kind of tutorial, that allowes to count the polygons. Without knowing anything about modifiing I learned how to make objects "ep-ready". So is there any possibility to learn how to count the polygons too, even if you're not firm in modifiing? |
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22nd Apr 2005, 11:39 AM
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# 23 |
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thefuzmixman
Instructor
Join Date: Feb 2005 |
Just to add to this, The Sims 2 is what is considered as a low polygon game. Everything from a simple to door to a complex bedframe was modeled with performance in mind. There is an art in low polygon modeling. The idea is to make your models look as good as you can, with as few "real" curves as possible. As my own rule of thumb, i try my hardest not to exceed 3,000 polygons when modeling. I also box model now, which is the way to go when needing to cut back polygons. I started out just combining shapes, but i realised that when two shapes intersect in a 3d mesh, unless they were merged together to remove the faces that are not visible, those non visible faces will be rendered and that can add many unused polygons. Having done my own experimenting however, Maxis has quite a few objects over the limit. That said, nothing i've found is over 6,000 polygons. Staying within half that range is my own personal recommendation and keeping it under 1,000 if it can be done, should be done. Thank you for puting up this notice, Delphy. When it gets to a point where we are publicly aware of how to add animations this information will really benefit everyone. |
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22nd Apr 2005, 11:44 AM
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# 24 | |
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thefuzmixman
Instructor
Join Date: Feb 2005 |
Quote:
Well, to count polygons you have to import that obj file into a 3d editor of some sort. I don't use the free ones so i don't know which ones have poly counters. Im thinking Blender would have one, but it's one heck of a ride just to understand the interface! I do agree though. Some kind of mini tut would help a lot. Maybe CT should do it :D | |
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xD |
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Last edited by thefuzmixman : 22nd Apr 2005 at 11:47 AM.
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22nd Apr 2005, 01:38 PM
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# 25 |
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beosboxboy
Instructor
 
Join Date: Mar 2005 |
Amen, testify, praise the Lord, say it like it is Delphy! If all my objects looked like they were made of pasteboard and string, I'd be ok with it. I couldn't care less about the "realism" of the objects. I want my Sims to be high poly-count, not the clutter they have to step over, around, or under. I have seen my game load-time stretch to over five minutes as the game's rendering engine slogs down with all the very pretty -- but completely extraneous -- clutter on the lot; then after some additions I nearly cried when my Sims hair all went to low detail when I just bought a £290 graphics board with 512 MB DDR RAM that mde everything sharp as razors two days earlier. For the record I have a 3.0 Ghz cpu with 2 GB of DDR RAM, so 5+ minutes load time is totally uncalled for. I am a graphic and web designer by profession, and I know the truth of your statements. High poly renders are for static use only, the difference between the graphics engines of The Sims (original) and The Sims 2 seems to have been totally lost on some people. I have stripped out all custom content and done a test run, my load time was under 20 seconds and everything is sharp as razors, so it is completely the fault of high poly custom content. If anyone wanted to do body mesh with 1000s of polygons, I would worship the ground they walk on and be happy with a neighbourhood with 10-20 Sims. This obsession with objects is great for those who are addicted to content, but for some of us poor schucks who download a lot just for the house, we find the 3000 poly-count lamps and 2000 poly-count chairs useless. I want meat, not potatoes. bless you Delphy for saying what this pathetic newbie has thought for over a month. beosboxboy |
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