Bless you disruptive behavior?

[Robodl95]

Read this article: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44722587/ns/us_news-weird_news/?GT1=43001

Personally I find this absolutely ridiculous, not so much the article because that's one person but the comments actually slam the students for saying it! I understand that a teacher must control his classroom but to me saying bless you or gesundheit is just polite manners. Deducting points (which he thankfully stopped) is really not appropriate, students should be graded on their tests, projects, participation, preparedness, etc. but definitely not their behavior (and especially not a polite social norm!!!) Sure it's possible that the kid was purposely sneezing loudly but then you talk to that kid, not ban people from showing common courtesy to everyone else.

[whiterider]

Frankly, my response is "big deal". When I was at school, I received a couple of detentions for coughing or yawning - the teacher thought I was doing so deliberately to disrupt the class or, on one occasion, to mock her. Was I actually trying to be disruptive? No. Was it a proportional response? No. Has it had any lasting impact on anything except the teacher's reputation within the school? Absolutely not.

I don't think the fact that saying "Bless you" is normal politeness has anything to do with it, really, just like the fact that coughing or yawning is a natural part of how the human body functions isn't really relevant to my case. It's just a frustrated teacher possibly misinterpreting an innocent action (unless, of course, the kids really were doing it to mess around), and meting out a too-harsh punishment. Happens all the time.

I do find it facepalmworthily stupid that the Superintendent questioned whether or not this is a matter of "freedom of speech". Seriously? Do they have any idea what "freedom of speech" means? Has anyone tried to universally suppress this kid's right to express his opinions or beliefs in public? No? Then shut up and go read a dictionary.

[SimsLover50]

Sometimes bless yous get annoying if someone says it every time a person sneezes. Which for some is multiple times in a row. I'd rather limit it to one bless you per episode and leave it at that.

[pinketamine]

students should be graded on their tests, projects, participation, preparedness, etc. but definitely not their behavior (and especially not a polite social norm!!!)

About the article... I don't know, every situation is different and sometimes students just take any little opportunity to start talking so I don't know about this particular case.

However, I don't agree with the quoted statement, I think behaviour has to be taken into account too, students can't simply do what the want and then get good results in the tests and get good marks.

[Robodl95]

About the article... I don't know, every situation is different and sometimes students just take any little opportunity to start talking so I don't know about this particular case.

However, I don't agree with the quoted statement, I think behaviour has to be taken into account too, students can't simply do what the want and then get good results in the tests and get good marks.
Agree with the first part but I got the impression that they basically just said bless you when someone sneezed, yeah it's talking but not conversation talking (does that make any sense?) I think you misunderstood my statement, behavior shouldn't affect a student's grades but they should get detentions, referrals, calls home, etc.

[Tempscire]

Non-issue, I think. Not a free speech issue at all; not a religious issue at all. The teacher's side of the story is that the students were sneezing and saying 'bless you' deliberately, which I can easily imagine some asshole teenagers doing to piss the teacher off after he's called for focus. Think big fake exaggerated sneezes done just to spark a new chorus of "bless yous" over and over again.

And you know what? Even if someone were constantly sneezing for real, at some point you just stop with the 'bless yous' and start ignoring it, because otherwise it just gets ridiculous. There is no compulsion to be so polite to a classmate that you are impolite to the teacher by ignoring their instructions to knock it off. The fact that this for some reason even made the news for us to reading about it-- even the "weird" news section-- makes want to slap those kids and their parents who went crying to the media in the first place (I doubt it was the teacher or administration who did).

... behavior shouldn't affect a student's grades but they should get detentions, referrals, calls home, etc.
Why not? This wasn't that big a deal, and it would be hard to prove which side is actually correct. Docking grade points would be a quickly enacted threat with potentially faster results. Those other things require time and effort outside of class. What if that's the only way to make them (the students or the parents) actually care? Whaaaat, little Timmy lost 2 points for talking after being told to shut up and he got a B instead of an A on this assignment? How dare you be so cruel! He deserves so much higher! You know, if horror stories of ineffectual helicopter parents are at all true. If they grow up to mouth off to their bosses, they aren't going to get detention or calls to their parents: they'll get fired, pay docked, or at least a note filed away for their performance review that would determine any raise they might get. Behavior is just as much evaluated as effort and productivity.

Sure it's possible that the kid was purposely sneezing loudly but then you talk to that kid, not ban people from showing common courtesy to everyone else.
Also, this is strawman-ish. They aren't banned from showing courtesy. They're banned from disobeying the teacher when he tells them to be quiet. No, being polite is not an exemption (in this teacher's classroom, at least). You don't get to break rules for (what you think is) a good cause. You can, but then you have to be prepared for the consequences.

[SuicidiaParasidia]

all of what tempscire said. all of it. we were all students once, and we've all at least bore witness to something equally stupid/teen antic-y.

a classroom is for learning, not for blessing (unless of course, you go to a religious school, but that's something else entirely). if youre going to test the teacher, be prepared to face the consequences. kids who scrape by in life without any form of repercussion for their BS grow up to be the a-hole next door later on.

[simbalena]

I thought this would be a non-issue but after reading the story I think the teachers response was completely wrong. Is this how teachers in American schools normally assess a students work?

Assignments should be marked on the merit of the assignment, and being disruptive in class should receive the appropriate penalty such as being barred from class or school for a certain amount of time depending on the severity of the bad behaviour.

[pinketamine]

In Spain, kids can't be barred from class; teachers aren't allowed to simply say the kid "go out from my class and come back the next hour". In that case, threating with mocking points is much more effective than simply saying "stop talking or I'll... (do nothing)".

[simbalena]

For bad behaviour there should be punishments such as yard duty, detention, suspension or expulsion.

What is the point of marking an assessment if the result isn't based solely on the merit of the assessment? If it is based on how much the teacher likes them then a kid who answers every question wrong might get better marks than a kid who has behavioural problems but gets every question right. That makes no sense to me, in Australia the aim of assessment is to assess a students work as objectively and consistently as possible, so that the same assignment will receive similar results if marked by different teachers.

Wouldn't a teacher giving results based on who they like the best have a demotivational affect on the class? If a student gets a good grade they won't know if it is due to their ability or how much they sucked up to the teacher.

[whiterider]

Your straw man is showing, simbalena. The teacher didn't dock points because he doesn't like the kid. There is a world of difference between docking points for bad behaviour and showing favouritism, and there's absolutely no evidence of the latter whatsoever here.

Let's also not forget that nowhere in the article is it said that the kids had points docked from their assessments. The term is assignments. In school terms, that's a big difference - assessments are, as simbalena said, designed to objectively ascertain a kid's academic ability, and can have a big impact on that kid's future long-term. Assignments, on the other hand, can be anything from an important piece of coursework, to a completely inconsequential weekly vocab homework, or similar. We have no idea what the assignment in question here was, so there's no point jumping to the conclusion that the teacher is sabotaging an important part of the kid's school career, because we just don't know.

That said, honestly, I don't see the problem with docking points from even significant work for bad behaviour, as long as the quality of work retains an appropriate weight in the marking. Learning how to interact in a working environment is a huge part of the purpose of school, and if a kid is struggling to learn those rules, then yes that is a school failure - an academic failure. It's not one specifically related to Maths or Biology or History, but it's still very significant; and a kid's grades - which are used to identify areas where the kid may need more help/no help whatsoever/a kick up the backside - absolutely should reflect such problems.

[Robodl95]

I completely agree with everything Simbalena said, school should work that way in the US also (and it has at every one that I've gone to). I don't understand why it being an assessment or an assignment matters because it will all go into his final grade. Grades should reflect areas which they need help in but docking points from their math grade just says that they need additional help in math, where does the behavior part come in? Also it depends on the kid, some (the minority) will freak out because of a worse grade but most teenagers will conform better if you give them detention, call home or whatever. If you dock points then no one will ever know except them.

[Oaktree]

I pretty much agree with whiterider. Most classes have a "participation" part of the grade, and it's completely appropriate to dock points from that if a student is behaving badly. Schools all too often focus solely on cramming as much information as possible into students' heads, but many schools are catching on to the fact that school is also supposed to teach social skills and discipline. A person with a head full of facts who can't work with others to make use of them is practically useless in the job market.

[Tempscire]

If you dock points then no one will ever know except them.
Unless they dick around to the point that their final grade is affected. My high school mailed report cards home addressed To the Parents of Tempscire. If the parent gives any kind of damn about the kid's education, chances are they'll see the grades. The kid may be dishonest and claim "teacher just doesn't like me" (not an uncommon excuse), but if the grade(s) is(are) worrisome enough or bad enough, the parent may choose to contact the school/teacher and then hear about kid's misbehavior.

Though honestly I'd expect that if some kid were that poorly behaved, they would have probably already transitioned to slightly more severe punishments like detention. While I'm totally okay with docking a few grades points for acting up*, and I suspect the kids in the class were deliberately acting like little jerks, I also don't think this is such a grievous offense to immediately warrant larger corrective action. ETA: And for a small, easily corrected action, parents don't need to be dragged in. Or they shouldn't need to be, anyway. The article is about a high school teacher. I didn't notice a grade level described, but chances are no one was under the age of 15. That's plenty old enough to start taking a modicum of responsibility for their own actions, knowing their behavior cost them some points on an assignment, and hopefully correcting themselves from that point on. If they don't, and antagonistic behavior is a regularity, then call in parents and greater consequence.

*Related thought + some anecdotes: I can recall a few times in my schooling that people were being perpetually rambunctious, and the teacher shut everything down by announcing a pop quiz. Anyone who hadn't been paying proper attention would then have an extra grade in the books they may not have done well on.

Turning in assignments late loses points. Most of my classes, especially through college, had fairly strict due dates (depends on the teacher, though). I remember getting docked points on a homework grade because I didn't have it for my actual class period, even though I turned it in later that same day. Turn in a paper 2 days late to some of my college classes, and the highest grade you could possibly make would be an 80/100. I recall another time a large portion of the class skipped, so everyone in attendance got an extra 100 quiz grade in the books that day as a reward (which would have a small affect on our final average, even). With other instructors, religious attending class, taking notes, and taking time to chat with the prof meant they'd be willing to round up a borderline grade for you at the end of the semester.

The above are all examples of behavior affecting a grade. It's far from rare, and never in my lifetime have grades been solely a reflection of straight know-how and ability. (Hell, for most people, all grades ever reflect behavior in the sense of studying 3 hours instead of 1, doing extra credits, taking tidy notes, and generally being responsible usually nets better grades than behaving irresponsibly and doing none of those things.)

[Robodl95]

Unless they dick around to the point that their final grade is affected.
No, no one would ever know that they lost points because of their behavior.
Turning in assignments late loses points.
I would expect this and it's reasonable. Extra time is an unfair advantage to everyone who had their assignment by the due date. Your teachers are actually really nice for giving you an 80% after two days, in most of my HS classes that would be a 0.

There's too many if's and it depends on questions for this situation. I think that the teacher's reaction extreme and I don't agree with him (recalling his statement about how saying bless you is a stupid and unnecessary behavior) but it's impossible to know if he was justified without being there.

[whiterider]

...why it being an assessment or an assignment matters because it will all go into his final grade.Not necessarily. In most systems that I know of, there's a lot of homework and so on given which doesn't have any impact on a final grade of some sort - it's given as a learning exercise, and marked to let the child and their parents know how well the kid is doing in that class. This is why I made the distinction between inconsequential work and important work; I can understand the feeling that the latter should be graded solely on quality. However, in the case of the former, I think to say so is more along the lines of "puritanical for purity's sake" than anything else, since losing points on such work has no real effect on anything long-term, other than the child's, and parents', perception of the level of their work. :)

Grades should reflect areas which they need help in but docking points from their math grade just says that they need additional help in math, where does the behavior part come in?I guess this too depends on system. In the UK, at least when I was at school, you very rarely got just a grade from a teacher - there would always be comments explaining why that grade was given, whether it's a grade on one lonely bit of homework, or a grade on a yearly report card. If part of the reason for a low grade is behaviour, then next to the grade will be written "whiterider did this and that well, and struggles with the other, and needs to work on resisting the temptation to talk to her friends during class", or whatever.

Also it depends on the kid, some (the minority) will freak out because of a worse grade but most teenagers will conform better if you give them detention, call home or whatever. If you dock points then no one will ever know except them.I guess that depends on the kid, as you say... and also on what the teacher is trying to achieve. A lower grade probably won't coerce a dedicated troublemaker into behaving, no, indeed. However, the first step with kids is often just to communicate that their behaviour is not acceptable, in a symbolic fashion - just look at commendations and "decommendations" (what a terrible word). Sure, some kids will keep making trouble because they want to; but those who have just got carried away, or provoked into silliness by their friends, will often sit up and take notice without the need for punishment.

I would agree, though, that the teacher's comments about the wisdom of saying "bless you" in general were over the top. Luckily, it doesn't sound like those opinions were the cause of his actions in the classroom - seems he'd have done the same thing in response to any unnecessary disruption.

The above are all examples of behaviour affecting a grade. It's far from rare, and never in my lifetime have grades been solely a reflection of straight know-how and ability.Indeed. This is a very nice and succinct way of putting it - academic achievement rests on intelligence and understanding, yes; but far more, I would say, on work ethic, attentiveness, curiosity, and behaving responsibly in regards to the academic setting or circumstance. I don't know why that should be the case only in higher education; indeed, if kids can learn all this in school, they'll be much better equipped for college, university etc, if that is what they decide they want to do.
And that's why I'm going to get back to reading about inchoate criminal offences now :p .

[Tempscire]

No, no one would ever know that they lost points because of their behavior.
They ought to, if the teacher says they'll lose grade points for doing/failing to do XYZ. That is to say, the teacher will know, and the student should be aware as well. If a parent confronts kid about the grade, the kid could be dishonest, but that just makes it even more likely for the parent to complain to the teacher, who can then explain directly to the parent how the grade was determined (thus the parent will then know as well). As whiterider commented, it'd be a pretty inconsequential consequence (:)) to the determined trouble-maker, but someone just thoughtlessly goofing off with friends would get the message.

I would expect this and it's reasonable.
Just an example of behavior affecting grades, along with the others. I've had other classes that went to 0 for the second day, but it all depends on the teacher, the class, and the assignment. One of my online college courses, iirc, had grade drops broken down by hours rather than days.

There's too many if's and it depends on questions for this situation. I think that the teacher's reaction extreme and I don't agree with him (recalling his statement about how saying bless you is a stupid and unnecessary behavior) but it's impossible to know if he was justified without being there.
Saying 'bless you' is an unnecessary behavior, though. It's one of those niceties that greases the wheel of society and helps us all get along, but I wouldn't say it's "necessary." Of course, if you believe the phrase got started to prevent people's souls from escaping, it's kind of stupid, too, now that we have a clearer understanding of biology.

I feel like that article was written with a clear intent in stirring up indignation, though.
1. Consider the byline: "Just common practice or disruptive behavior? Bay Area teacher plays judge." No one has banned politeness or called a courtesy phrase disruptive. Students talking when they were told to shut up is disruptive. "Playing judge" insinuates that it's some kind of debate whether the expression is disruptive and the teacher is stepping outside his bounds to decide. I get hints of "omg could this teacher be trying to inculcate his students with atheism?" I mean, would they say a teacher was "playing judge" as they sat down to grade tests? Technically they are judging the students' work... but it's a loaded phrase and would be patently ridiculous to try wedging it in in that case.

2. The quote from the teacher about the saying not making any sense in modern times is flopped in the middle of the article with no context. Consider this scenario:
- "No talking!"
- sneezes/"Bless you!" ensues
- "I said, no talking! Minus points!"
- "Bbbbut just being polite. Do want me to be rude? You have to say bless you when someone sneezes!"
- "No you don't. The world won't stop turning and no one will die if you don't say it. It's not "necessary." It doesn't even make sense anymore...etc."
And the so-called journalist runs with the part of the teacher's quote that makes him sound like an un-Christian asshole oppressing those poor, polite students like a tin-pot dictator.

Clipping the quote in such a way also further frames the subject of the article (and guides reaction to the topic) to fit with the sensational, traffic-generating IS BEING POLITE A DISRUPTIVE BEHAVIOR? ONE TEACHER THINKS SO. FILM AT 11 kind of blather. So...I agree there's no way of knowing what really happened, and I'm disproportionately enraged by the article-writer's tactics that do nothing to help enlighten us. I still don't think docking points was too extreme.

And to reiterate, I definitely don't think there's any reason for this story to have made national news of any sort (or even local news), and I kind feel like it would be a prime example of why 24-hour news cycles are the worst thing to happen to public discourse and accurate perceptions of reality. That, and people don't understand the First Amendment at all.

[Robodl95]

Saying 'bless you' is an unnecessary behavior, though. It's one of those niceties that greases the wheel of society and helps us all get along, but I wouldn't say it's "necessary." Of course, if you believe the phrase got started to prevent people's souls from escaping, it's kind of stupid, too, now that we have a clearer understanding of biology.
Well technically having any manners is unnecessary also, there's no no real need to say please, thank you or excuse me but they're still expected to be used. I take bless you to mean good health just like it's counterpart gesundheit (which is very commonly said in my area), wishing the person well, no sickness, etc. Good manners is something schools should promote not discourage.

[Tempscire]

Well technically having any manners is unnecessary also, there's no no real need to say please, thank you or excuse me but they're still expected to be used.
Which is why I added that it's part of the niceties that help people get along. Manners aren't useless; otherwise pointless phrases aren't useless. But they can take a back seat sometimes.

Good manners is something schools should promote not discourage.
Except it's not "good manners" figuratively on trial, here. The kids could have been saying "banana fart" and, aside from not having any kind of excuse for blurting out a gibberish phrase, the effect would have been the same.

Also, as I mentioned in my first post: what about promoting good manners like respecting your elders and obeying your teachers? I'd say that's more important than blessing someone when they sneeze. Even if someone had been genuinely sneezing throughout the class, once the teacher says quiet, the blessers should stay quiet.

[BlakeS5678]

Correct me if I'm wrong but, I don't really see how that was even considered an article. It had far too many gaps and missing information. Excuse me if this was in the article but, here are some unanswered questions.

1. Was the kid actually sneezing or was it purposely to disrupt the class?

2. What exact grade were the students in? (This can show the expected level of maturity.)

3. Was he the only one who said bless you, or was he the last of many students?

4. Did the student actually say it in a loud disruptive manner?

5. How important was this assignment?

6. Who brough this to the media. (This may really change a story.)

7. Did this make a difference in ANYBODY'S life?

(Sorry for the length)

[Robodl95]

Which is why I added that it's part of the niceties that help people get along. Manners aren't useless; otherwise pointless phrases aren't useless. But they can take a back seat sometimes.
That brings up the question of when niceties can be ignored.
Also, as I mentioned in my first post: what about promoting good manners like respecting your elders and obeying your teachers?
Well first off, I think that you should respect all people regardless of age if they deserve it. Just because they're older doesn't make them worthy of respect. But anyway assuming that it was just a simple sneeze and bless you situation with no melodramatics involved I don't think saying bless you is being disrespectful to the teacher.

[BlakeS5678]

I have to agree with the above comment. Respecting your elders and obeying are long

since rules that over time we learned don't always make since and common sense

replaced it. :rolleyes: Imagine if we were still living by "Children should be seen and NOT heard"

or "Women are only useful for breeding and cleaning." That's why society has evolved. In

my opinion nobody's really better then anyone else and respect should be given by EARNED. Not

just because your older. To put it to the extreme, following that rule means 70 year old pedophiles

are more respected then children and should be obeyed. :wtf: Now isn't THAT more "unnecessary" then saying bless you.

[Purity4]

I have to agree with the above comment. Respecting your elders and obeying are long

since rules that over time we learned don't always make since and common sense

replaced it. :rolleyes: Imagine if we were still living by "Children should be seen and NOT heard"

or "Women are only useful for breeding and cleaning." That's why society has evolved. In

my opinion nobody's really better then anyone else and respect should be EARNED. Not

just because your older, to put it to the extreme, following that rule means 70 year old pedophiles

are more respected then children and should be obeyed. :wtf: Now isn't THAT more "unnecessary" then saying bless you.

You had me until you said respect should be earned. I think respect should be default until someone proves they don't deserve it.

[crocobaura]

Sure it's possible that the kid was purposely sneezing loudly but then you talk to that kid, not ban people from showing common courtesy to everyone else.


The most disruptive behaviour I've ever seen was on a guy who would start asking the teacher questions on the subject to the point that he monopolised her for the entire duration of the course. Every time he opened his mouth it would be the end of the course for the rest of the students and the stupid teacher always played his game.

[BlakeS5678]

The most disruptive behaviour I've ever seen was on a guy who would start asking the teacher questions on the subject to the point that he monopolised her for the entire duration of the course. Every time he opened his mouth it would be the end of the course for the rest of the students and the stupid teacher always played his game.

Now, I could reasonably see a teacher docking points from a student for that. Not something silly like "Bless You".

[Robodl95]

I think that the teacher should be partially blamed in that situation. If I were him/her I would tell the student politely that "I appreciate all of your questions _____ but we have other things to discuss today, if you're still confused feel free to come by after school and we can work them out" or if I was extremely annoyed "I'm sick of your nonsense, go to the principal's office/other discipline" There's no reason why one student should be in control of the class. That's a much larger issue than sneezing.

[SuicidiaParasidia]

You had me until you said respect should be earned. I think respect should be default until someone proves they don't deserve it.

politeness/courtesy should be default. respect implies a level of trust that comes with experience and knowledge of a person; ergo, respect should be earned.

/nitpick

[Elyasis]

Yes, respect everyone before knowing them to be unworthy of your respect. That'll work.

How are you supposed to respect anyone you don't know anyway?

Respect is earned by showing you can be trusted. By being a decent human being. Basically, it's a byproduct of friendship.

[Purity4]

politeness/courtesy should be default. respect implies a level of trust that comes with experience and knowledge of a person; ergo, respect should be earned.

/nitpick

Respect is defined not only as polite/courteous, but also as good opinion, honor or admiration. I think all of these can be given to a person you don't know well. Trust isn't part of the respect equation. Here's an example: my neighbors I know only in passing, but I don't consider any of them my friends. I don't trust any of them to watch my children. However, I greet them politely, one neighbor I admire their gardening abilities, another I have a good opinion of because they keep their yard clean and tidy and they are generally quiet. That is respect. Another neighbor, though, who frequently loses control of their dogs, has an unkempt yard with junk piled in it, has the car radio blaring as the engine warms in the morning, and has numerous noisy house guests coming and going at all hours do not have my respect.

[BlakeS5678]

Respect is defined not only as polite/courteous, but also as good opinion, honor or admiration. I think all of these can be given to a person you don't know well. Trust isn't part of the respect equation. Here's an example: my neighbors I know only in passing, but I don't consider any of them my friends. I don't trust any of them to watch my children. However, I greet them politely, one neighbor I admire their gardening abilities, another I have a good opinion of because they keep their yard clean and tidy and they are generally quiet. That is respect. Another neighbor, though, who frequently loses control of their dogs, has an unkempt yard with junk piled in it, has the car radio blaring as the engine warms in the morning, and has numerous noisy house guests coming and going at all hours do not have my respect.

Well, now why don't we make a whole new conversation for that, which can be made in a new thread or elsewhere.

[Elyasis]

((Tell me Blake, do you fancy yourself some kind of unofficial junior moderator?))

I guess it depends on what your definition of respect is... It's not simply politeness/courtesy because that can often be fake and without any real consideration of the value of the other person. Strangers have not built up a reputation as good or bad and so deserve neither respect nor contempt.

[BlakeS5678]

I suppose I do. I REALLY have to work not saying things sometimes.