Is it generally preferable to have a few large lots containing several venues (e.g. a shopping plaza lot with multiple shops) or to have several small lots, each with a single venue? It seems that larger lots would be detrimental to performance, though some players have mentioned that they're livelier because there are more things for sims to do. Smaller lots are easier to build and faster to load, but do they remain deserted most of the time?

I made a mega mall with several of the rabbithole rugs on it. The place was always packed (30+ sims). The game simply could not keep up with them. The sims would visit the lot for the RH's, then stand around complaining about being hungry and tired, wetting themselves and passing out instead of taking care of their needs, even though I had plenty of objects there to do so. They rarely interacted with one another; literally just stood there (though they WOULD tip my busker but that was about it). Eventually the problem spread to the rest of the town, since the game still had to track what was going on at the mall, even when I wasnt actively there. I finally had to remove the mall to get my town back to normal.

A properly made single-RH venue will usually attract your sims, so long as your computer can handle the load.

I think it depends on what kind of venue it is; some venues attract sims regardless. But others attract far fewer to none, depending on how many sims you have and what else is in the world that might attract them.

For example I like to sometimes create a hangout or restaurant on a lot that has RH's like the grocery or bookstore on them because lots of sims are attracted to the lot and they often end up congregating at the hangout so it's super populated with sims eating or doing whatever activities I put on the lot. I definitely wouldn't try to place every RH there is on one lot but a group of them works fine IMO (at least on my PC).

OTOH if you have a lot that's just designated 'visitors allowed' it doesn't attract very many sims at all. Partly this is in the code, at least as far as I've checked it. Sims with certain personality traits are attracted to certain types of venues (and couch potatoes are discouraged from all of them), and certain venues attract more sims than others. This can be modded and I suspect the mods that affect that use the venues.xml code to do so. As for a shopping mall, I don't see any problem with having several shops on the same lot. Since those lots don't attract as many sims as some of the other lots (Large Market attracts about the same number as Hangout) grouping them together can be useful.

I've been building a small town in an empty map that uses open venues with Zerbu's career mod and the various sets from the Store like the bakery set. It's very sparsely populated at this point so that is affecting things obviously, but my preference is to build those restaurant type lots next to other venues - like my combo police, bookstore, and hospital lot has the food replicator from ITF because it spawns a waiter to serve food. That lot gets several sims on it daily and they tend to stay for a while. So far I've not created any type of mall lot for my little village because it doesn't fit the vibe of a little town just getting off the ground. I just built the school but there are no kids in town yet. A few toddlers though, so I decided to be prepared.

One thing that might be a problem with having a lot of little hangouts around town is that you spread the few sims available out to all of them at any given time, so they end up pretty empty. When my town gets more populated I guess I'm going to find out (there are so few sims in it at this point that it's difficult to say - I played a small bakery yesterday and one sim visited, lol! - lot is a bakery using NRAAS custom tags but set with debug enabler to function like a coffee shop).

Pretty much all of my community lots have more than one rabbithole. Cityhall and military base in one, Police station and stadium in one and so on. I have one lot that holds bookstore, bistro, grocery, and theater and everything works just fine. The theater is in basement level. Career lots than came with Ambitions can only hold one type of activity so you can't place rabbitholes in those lots.

I do that too, basically using the rabbit holes to draw sims onto lots. Unfortunately, there are a limited number of rabbit holes in the game, and some rabbit holes are more difficult to combine with venues in a logical manner (for instance, it'd be a bit strange to put the police station rabbit hole in a clothing store just to draw traffic...)



Thanks for confirming that this is a potential issue... it's a shame, since I prefer smaller lots as they're easier to move around if I change my mind about their location, etc. In Sunset Valley, I'd like to split the large bookstore/theater/grocery lot into smaller lots for venues that don't use rabbit holes (the bookstore/theater/grocery rabbit holes will be relocated elsewhere), but worry that they would get few visitors.

I've played on and off in a save that was made with homes and lots built for Hylewood, a beautiful little autumn island world by Nilxis (seriously, it's a gem, there are so many gorgeous little details). There's a giant lot with a bunch of places and the basement level is full of rabbitholes.

On the one hand, the lot always has people, and since its a small world, it's nice that it never feels empty, but the entry and exit points can get over-crowded because there are only 2 staircases, so sometimes sims would stand around for hours trying to enter or exit the basement. I haven't played that save in a couple weeks but when I do next time, I might try removing the staircases and swapping for elevators.
I do have Shimrod's townies mod (linked site requires registration) also, which almost certainly played a role here.

There are some rabbitholes that draw no visitors at all, the police station is one of them. Others are the military, science, spa (not 100% sure about that one), fortune teller, criminal hideout, mausoleum and business/journalism rabbitholes. Also, unless you use the current version of Overwatch, none of the combo rabbitholes will draw visitors.
Like tangie already said all you will achieve by that is to spread visitor numbers over multiple locations.
Controlling visitor flow can be influenced by three factors: the lot type, the rabbithole types and the additional objects on the lot. The lot type according to the lot type's intensity as defined in Venues.xml and potential closing times, the rabbithole type by mixing attractive rabbitholes with non-attractive ones and the additional objects by chosing objects Sims like to use or do not like to use to give an incentive to stay/not stay on the lot once a Sim has been pushed there.

If, for example, you added a diner or bistro to the Mirabello Plaza lot in Sunset Valley, zoned it as a park and added a few outdoor entertainment objects you'd have a "killer" lot that is busy all the time. If, on the other hand you'd replace the theater and bookstore with the police station and spa, zoned it as No-Visitors Allowed and got rid of all interactive objects (benches, dumpsters) Sims will only visit the grocery store and leave soon afterwards again.

Nitromon, I have been wondering about venue type & its influence on sim attraction & behavior. Mostly people don't seem to know much. Do you have more observations? Or maybe we could start a thread to centralize them.

The lot types, their attraction value, what traits are drawn to what lot type and at what time a lot draws more or fewer Sims, opening and closing times and what lot type might give visible or hidden moodlets are defined in the Venues.xml.
It's a long list with a lot of settings and it's also cross-dependant on other tuning and xml files.
Closing times are also defined in the Bars.xml, for example, which, in addition to Venues.xml defines what drinks are served, the price range and quality of drinks and food available from bars and what role Sims wear as a uniform.
The hidden moodlets I mentioned above also seem to play a role in various tuning files. "BeInWerewolfBar", for example appears in some seemingly unrelated tuning files and seems to push Sims to do some actions that are then defined as more attractive in a Supernatural Hangout than they usually are.

I don't think that anyone has ever compiled all of the data, but nikel23 at least once shared an excel file with the Venues.xml's contents: http://modthesims.info/showthread.p...843#post4655843

The thing with certain objects on certain lot types and how much visiting Sims use them is rather inconclusive. I have a skating rink on an arcade lot and it's always busy, while I have one arcade lot where Sims never bowl for unknown reasons. Pool is one of the most favourite pastimes on one of my java hut lots, and I have a hangout where all they do is drink nectar from the racks, although not as excessively as in a nectary.
For this you would have to probably take into account the respective advertising each object sends to Sim, which means you'd have to look at each object's ITUN file.

The one thing that I find quite remarkable though is that I have a hangout that changes according to season and offers most attractions a festival lot offers, too, and it is more popular than the respective festival lot I had in a previous version of that world.

There has been several threads on the subject, but it's kind of complicated. I did once find a spreadsheet with information, and I think there might be more out there of that kind, but you know these complex issues needs a sticky of some kind in building or caw forum or something. I don't think there is anything in the wiki.

... and thank you Don for posting that sheet from Nikel23. I was wondering where it had gone to.

Since I made a world, it's also the fact that I made characters fitting my main focus in that world. They would then be more likely to go out in the evening, be social, meet at the gym, go to the beach etc.

This is an example on how venues work:

Hangout
Intensity: 50; Intensity Downtown: 60; OneShotMotives: Social, Fun; Continuous Motive: None; Min Length: 1; Max Length: 4; Encouraged Traits: PartyAnimal, Excitable, Childish; Excluding Traits: Loner; Encouraged Skills: Charisma; ColdSpot Priority: 3; Can Be Hotspot: True; Pets Allowed: None; BookGigModifier: 50; PerformanceMeter: 100

I have left out a lot of the settings that do not apply to hangouts but this gives you an initial idea how many settings there are.

The Hangout has an intensity of 50 in regular worlds and 60 in Late Night cities. Intensity is the general attractiveness for visitors. 50 is quite average but more than a junkyard which is 30 and much less than a library which is 100; Social and Fun are the main motives this venue addresses; min and max length is how long on average a visitor will stay; encouraged traits means that the party animals etc are more likely to visit a hangout while loners won't (excluding trait); Sims with ranks in the Charisma skill will also tend to visit a hangout; ColdSpot Hotspot mean that this venue can become a hotspot (Late Night function with its own modifying values; hotspots are supposed to be fuller than cold spots); pets are not allowed to visit and the last two entries are relevant if there's a Showtime stage present.

The OneShotMotive is probably the setting that is important for determining what objects Sims will use. If an object or interaction advertises Social according to its ITUN then Sims are more likely to use it when they are in a Hangout. Same with Fun.
Combined with the encouraged traits (Party Animal, Childish, Excitable) and encouraged skill (Charisma) a good object for a Hangout will be a stereo and you are more likely to see Sims actually turn it on and dance with each other. Place music instruments (guitar, drums, piano and bass) and more often than not you will see several Sims jam together, because jamming raises social AND fun.

The encouraged skill is also important. If you start a fresh town and none of the residents have points in Charsima your hangout will be less populated than in a town with a lot of Sims that have points in Charisma.

Just look at the Hangout in Twinbrook. Twinbrook has a lot of Party Animals and Sims with points in Charsima and the Hangout is always busy, sometimes even with loners when they have points in Charisma. The same Hangout lot in a world with Sims that have no points in Charisma will be much emptier.

Therefore it is just as important to organise your population as it is to set up your venues in your world. Populate it with dull characters with zero skills and your community lots might end up being just as dull. A good example is the fishing skill. Once a Sim has at least one point in fishing they will start to go visit fishing lots on their own. This is even more important than the Angler trait when it comes to pulling Sims to a fishing spot.

NRAAS Story Progression seems to encourage sims to learn to fish. You might also try grouping with a couple of other sims, taking them to a fishing spot, starting to fish, and then see if they will join you.

This is all very,very interesting, thanks.

Short of simply giving them the points with mods like MasterController you could perhaps:
(1) Play them for a while and send them to the various classes yourself
(2) Give them the tablet from the Store and add a mod that allows them to keep it; they seem to enjoy listening to a random skill podcast on their own (the choice of skills available on the tablet is limited, however)
(3) Have an active Sim with maxed logic and other skills and start teaching inactives these skills
(4) Use the brain enhancing machine from UL on them
(5) The Tree of Prosperity from the Store also grants skills randomly (the object is bugged though; I don't recommend getting it)
(6) Throw Supernatural skill elixirs at them (I don't have any experience with that method though)
(7) The Wishing Well from the Store and perhaps the Mill, too, seem to encourage Sims to use it for fishing
(8) Some skills have objects connected to them that can be used by two Sims and allow "Ask to Join", like the chess table for logic
(9) EA Story Progression as well as AwesomeMod and NRaas SP have routines for skill gain; EA is random, AM lets them gain skills according to their traits or career and NRaas probably has settings for all sorts of scenarios
(10) Anglers and Sims who Love The Outdoors are more likely to start fishing on their own. But as the intensity of a fishing spot is rather low and therefore doesn't pull Sims as effectively as other lot types a fishing pond in a Big Park raises the chance that these Sims start fishing without a skill point. Add to that that you are more likely to visit a park with your active Sim(s), too, which pulls all other Sims on that lot into high detail mode and thus raises their autonomy, chances are higher for inactives to fish in a Big Park and gain their first level on their own.
(11) What Ghost sdoj already said

One of the trickier skills in that respect is Charisma because there are no objects enabled for autonomous use that teach them this skill, but as Charisma is such an important skill in order to have inactives act more social I usually cheat some of them to at least one point with MC. And that seems to enhance social life a lot. More social behaviour results in higher Charisma once they have at least one point; higher Charisma seems to raise their chances to have more friends; more friends also seems to raise the chance that an inactive's NPC party has more than your active Sim as invited guest and that your community lots are more lively.

@Don Babilon



Interesting... However, even a rabbit hole that attracts no "casual" visitors will still be visited by sims who work there (i.e. a lot with the police rabbit hole will be visited by police sims), so if there are motive-filling objects on the same lot, won't these sims use them after work, when exiting the rabbit hole, especially if their motives are low?



It seems that there's no straightforward way of planning venue distribution to guarantee that lots will be well frequented in a balanced manner. Many small lots would spread the total population too thin, but larger lots full of things to do might just leave objects sitting fallow due to the lot type and the traits/skills of sims who are attracted there. This is even more difficult for retail venues for which fun/social objects are not a necessarily logical fit, such as car dealerships, clothing stores, bicycle shops, etc.

I haven't created a Rebel Hangout yet in my game because I had supposed that it would be frequented only by those sims labeled to belong to the Rebel group? It's not a problem in the default university neighborhood where there are plenty of rebels, but in base neighborhoods, I hardly have any. Do you have experiences of visitor traffic on rebel hangouts that is placed in a base/suburban neighborhood?



If a townie sim is assigned to enter a career that needs Fishing skill to advance (like Science), he will gain the fishing skill autonomously sooner or later (at least, in my game - I play with awesomemod + Nraas Overwatch - maybe it's just mod behavior, not vanilla behavior).

This whole thread is most fascinating because it's one of the most interesting things in Sims 3 for me is how community lots work - and it highlights the problem most of us struggle with, namely, how to make them frequented and actively used by sims. For example, I've been wondering for a while to build a disco club but on a lot type that would be more frequented than usually the Late Night clubs are. So far in my game (I don't have 3 EPs) the lots with the highest traffic are Hangout, Nectary and Java Hut, in any neighborhood. Setting a disco club to Hangout should be out of the question because I would like to use a LN bar with a bartender, and since Hangout is 24/7 open, I fear the bartender and the bar could be bugged. Setting it to Java Hut, it seems, would kill the disco function because sims would seek for studious activities (books, laptops) and not dancing and clubbing (and Java Hut closes at 1 AM which is too early for a disco). Nectary, as I remember, is also a 24/7 open lot, so out of the question again. - Hmm I don't have any experience with Arcades - maybe that is worth a try, its opening hours are similar to the LN clubs and it has happy hours, it seems - do you think sims would dance, karaoke and drink at the bar on an Arcade lot if there are no arcade machines or bowling alleys at all?

No, because the game sends them home as soon as their shift has ended. If your Sims stay on their career lot once their work shift has ended then this is not normal.

Rebel Hangouts are completely fine without any rebels; they'll be as attractive as the Java Hut.

That'd would be AM's story mode then that is responsible.

Late Night bars work perfectly fine in Hangouts. The mixologist will arrive at noon and leave at 4am. All lots without closing times will have working mixologists with that schedule.

Rebel Hangout and Arcade might be good choices then. Nectary is a bad choice for another reason: it has no settings for the bars, i.e., the mixologist will come but won't serve anything special - the two basic drinks and maybe one type of food.

Another way to increase the popularity for disco clubs in suburban worlds is to mod the Venues.xml and raise the intensity for that lot type.

Wow, thank you for the answers, these are very valuable information for me.

I have a couple of questions:
1. Is it good for a first time modder to mod venue settings?
2.Is it possible to make a venue setting and name it for a world I make, just for that world?

1. I guess it depends on what it is that you want to change. Some settings are trickier than others, especially when they interact with other files.
2. Not via a mod. A mod would apply to all of your games. In that case I'd try to do it with Retuner as the settings there are limited to the save, like most of the Nraas mods. You'd have to import that setting into each new game you start in that particular world though.