All-in-one tools have their benefits, as have specialized single tools. SimPE became one heavy blob of a tool real fast, it was very useful, but it was a swiss army knife: Doing lots of things and then a few more.

In my opinion the specialized tools will do a better work and will be way more maintainable because of their small footprint. You use a hammer to drive a nail into a wall put use a gripper to get it out. So it is fine and smart to have specialized tools to do certain tasks instead of one big catch-em-all.

So modders can use just the tool they need and are not confused by thingamagooks they do not need.

A handful of specialized tools is fine with me.

As someone just learning all this from scratch, the specialised tools have given me a much greater understanding of the how all the different files function individually and work together in a package in a way I don't think a single program could have. I like them. They are lean and they do the job. And I can tell exactly what they are doing.

I'm sure there are some people who work differently to me and have been deterred by seeing 4 different programs listed in a tutorial, but they way the tools here break everything down instead of handling some steps "invisibly" is a strength, imo. TSR Workshop doesn't appeal to me at this stage while I'm learning.

What Delphy said.

I think that when Delphy gets his CAS tool finished, and I get my object meshing tools finished, you will have the basics to do anything we could with SimPE.

First, people did tuning mods, because you can do those with a package editor or ripper (what I use) and NotePad/WordPad/Whatever.

Rick, Peter, Pescado and others lead the way with script mods. Those will always be tough for people, because they are programs, and you need compilers and disassemblers and programming skills. There are plenty of people doing really cool stuff, but no way would a Sims 3 SimPE be of much use for that.

Peter and Inge have just put out a wonderful object cloner, the equal of the Object Workshop mode of SimPE. You select a suitable base to work from, hit start, then save when finished and you have a ready-to-play copy of an object. If you extract all of the files in that package to a directory, you can use any of several choices of string editors and graphics editors to recast the object into something new. I showed today that it is possible to remake these packages with new meshes.

With Delphy's planned CAS tool additions, you will be able to make new clothes and hair meshes as non-replacements. Extract, edit, package and play.

There are still some frontiers yet, such as animations, and the tools are less intensively tested and polished. But the individual tools we have are in the long run a bonus for everybody. When Quaxi got too busy to continue his work, we were fortunate Peter and Inge were able to maintain SimPE. The way we are going, when developers drop out, and some will, the whole banana doesn't rot, someone else can step into the void and build a replacement more readily than trying to replicate the huge undertaking that went into SimPE.

One smart thing we did was to make a common filename format and extension list for the package parts. That took a lot of discussion and consensus building, somewhat like herding cats, but it will make interoperability of the various tools much better for users.

Yeah, I'm an optimist by nature, but we will all see Sims 3 become the most modded, best playing game yet. Bugs be damned, full speed ahead!

<* Wes *>

I for one think it's great people have a choice this time around. We're making TSR Workshop a one-stop-shop tool much like SimPE and if you don't like that, you can choose another tool. We're not out to force anyones hands with our tool, merely give people a choice.

Regarding speed - the reason it's slow on upload is because it loads all the related EA game data. This can easily be added as a preference option and would make the tool load a LOT quicker - we'll play around with it a bit.

Regarding the fineprint and your suspicions of us putting bad things into the files you create, I suggest you read this thread here: http://www.the-prism.com/index.php?topic=3225.0 - make sure you read the LAST page with the result of this thorough testing.

Regarding the EULA - we claim no ownerships over anything you create. It's yours to do as you wish and that's the end of that discussion.

As far as open source goes - we have as been discussed before agreed to share all backend we figure out or develop. One problem here is that much of the work has/had already been done as far as the specifications goes. We're all developing our tools based on the same specs, but our frontend (such as 3D preview, GUI etc) is closed source and was never to be a part of the open source collaboration.

Full mesh support is top on our priority list and with it we hope to unlock the key to objects as well.

Lastly, regarding the usability. We are soon releasing an update with an advanced and basic mode that will hopefully make the first impression a lot clearer to new users.

Hope this clarifies some of your questions and concerns.

Enjoy Sims 3 everyone!

What exactly does TSR Workshop phone home?

To load the latest updates on the startscreen, it loads an XML document with those news posts and the 4 featured creations. This whole "phone home" affair is just blown way out of proportion - read the findings by SBlade on The Prism and make your own judgement based on those facts.

Thomas, Reading over your clarifications about the open source stuff - I have to now question what the point of you releasing anything is... I mean, the wiki contains all the updated file formats (and, to be honest, 99% of that wasn't done by TSR people... in fact, I've had to ask you to remind your guys to update the wiki, which they've rarely if ever done)... so theres no real point to releasing the code for your "backend" becuase that'll only ever be DBPF libraries and so on, which we already have.

Considering that you use an open source library (SlimDX) anyway, I really don't see why you would want to keep your 3d preview closed-source, unless it's to somehow have something you can say "We have this and nobody else does".

I dunno, at this stage of the game, I really don't feel that the community as a whole will benefit from TSR releasing the "backend" code. If you really wanted to benefit the community, release things which you can do that nobody else has done (yet) - like the 3d preview, for example.

Quite honestly, I feel like it's a case where, yes, everybody works from the same "sources" (ie the wiki), but all the cool stuff gets hoarded by one site and not shared.

I'd like for you to seriously reconsider your stance on keeping everything closed source. While I realise that some things (like the GUI and your usage of the PropertyGrid) really aren't useful to anybody not using the tool, at least release something that isn't just a rehash of what we have already.

WesHowe already beat you to the key to objects, and he had to work it out pretty much entirely on his own (with some help in the beginning from Kary and myself).

No offense, but, if all you are intending to release is the backend DBPF libraries and so on, then I don't really see this as "helping the community" and I think you guys know that. I'm actually quite disappointed becuase everything seems to be really quite one-sided, and I (and others) expected more.

I tested the TSR workshop, is easy, "clear" and really usable. The 3D preview is just nice, meshing is much better to use than the S2bodyshop... U can make a mesh and recolors really fast! that's the true! something that i loved from TSR tool is that it uses S3packs so i was not so wrong about it could be a simple and usable way for CC...
The Trick! is obvious thats just a trick.. the tool is not finishes and as the name says is the "public version", it would be nice if EA relases a tool like this ( i think that it should came with the game ) there is no emotion right now in find a tool like this one... from a page thats trying to do business because this tool is gonna be payable. They can continue dreaming if they think i'm gonna pay a simple Euro or Dollar for a tool to make my FREE cc.
I felt i quite disappointed last week trying to finish my hair meshes when i asked for help and nobody had time to write 2lines to tell me what i'm doing wrong... but i still gonna prefer this home-made-free tools that we are testing it all together and we are seen all problems and seen how it is been doing step by step (actuallization by actillization) so guys u're doing a great work (CTU, Plugins,S3pe... everything ) and i really prefer this way. I Wanna know what i'm doing and why the tool works, not a program that makes everything for u. As Delphy said, thats should be a "helping comunity" and thats was the funny thing.

Thomas, I want to stand by Delphy here and say I am one of the "and others" he refers to who have expressed disappointment over this. I was one of two people primarily (I am sure you know who the other one is) who pressed to have you guys included in our developers chats and for bygones to be bygones. I stuck my neck out a long way and I feel let down. The exchange of information has been way, way too one-sided.

I applaud you, Delphy, Inge, Wes, and the others, for all your hard work and for trying to have a meaningful dialogue with TSR. However, I never expected two way exchange, or even the slightest benefit, from talking with TSR. They have been parasitical in the past. They continue to be parasitical. Never seen any indication from them that they would act otherwise. I certainly do not blame you for TSR's behavior.

Thomas, you clearly realize that appearing to work with the free community is of great benefit to you. However, you seem only interested in the public perception that you're cooperative and helpful, not in actually being so. People see through this, and you are really shooting yourself in the foot. You are driving customers away, you are reinforcing the very negative opinion people have of you and your business. Try honesty and cooperation for once. See how much more money you make when you have actually earned some goodwill.

I'll echo the props the the community. Delphy, Inge, Wes, everyone who has put in effort towards the goal of understanding game formats so we can eventually have a tool to create true custom content.

Thomas, TSR has saved plenty of time and money by using community knowledge, and they are in debt to the community for that. A debt that has, so far, gone unpaid. Think of the community like employees, except instead of money they just want information. But they are not being paid because TSR "doesn't have time" (What happened to the time you saved using the community resources?). How would an employee feel if they weren't paid because you didn't have money? Because that's effectively what you are doing.

Instead of giving proper credit they instead remove links to MTS from their forums claiming MTS does not meet their "pg13 policy".

example:
http://forums.thesimsresource.com/s...246&postcount=5

That's pathetic.

We were promised several weeks ago by Thomas that policy would change. Looks like it still hasn't.

He was trying to give the impression it was up to their moderators (not the business owners) to decide the linking policy and the reasons behind it. Thomas was having to consult his moderator to see why the policy was in place and if she would agree to change it.

If Thomas is going to be making promises on behalf of his company, then it is his *personal* responsibility to see they are carried out. It's no good later blaming poor Tug.

Wait a minute? It is in my impression that MTS have more modest content than TSR?
Oh well. Sorry about going offtopic but I just laughed a little there.

Nonetheless, he said he had consulted with Tug and they were going to change that. That was weeks ago, and we've seen nothing more of it - and they're still deleting links to utterly non-adult-in-any-way content. All we're getting are empty promises, and nothing ever delivered.

And conveniently, 24 hours later Thomas is gone from the thread.

I hadn't heard anything about TSR up until this big "release" but considering the stuff I seem to read about it, it really doesn't make me want to have any part in things they do.

Sad but true. Not a good business strategy.

Well, as an update regarding linking, I've spoken with Thomas, and he's said that within the next week, they'll change the policy on linking to MTS (and presumably to other sites like us that may have items they think are "adult" in nature). I suggested that they put up a news post regarding it on the forums (since many people won't check the rules daily) and I hope they do so, but I'll be quite happy either way when this is done.

Just wanted to confirm what HP said. The policy will change this coming week to allow for linking to here and other places.

Regarding the open source debate - this is something we're currently discussing with everyone involved and I think it's important that you're all updated on this. We are going to share the knowledge on 3D view and other things we have figured out, so yes we will be doing our part also. This will be confirmed once it's done by the parties involved, for now I hope Inge, Delphy and others will be able to confirm this discussion has taken place and that our ambition is, very much, to participate openly.

Enjoy the tools everone!

Yes, you had the conversation with me a couple of hours ago. You explained that you had all been too busy to put in place your part of the agreement. The success of this collaboration depends on you not continuing to be too busy, and to place more priority upon keeping your side of the agreement.

Next day: And indeed I can now confirm that TSR reps have shared some information with us that has been useful in furthering the development of one of our tools. That makes me a lot happier

The tool fails for me. I downloaded some free hairs from TSR, all made with the TSR Workshop tool. While playing the household, they show up fine and as advertised, but switching households and the sims from the unactive households with the custom hair show up on the community lots with the EA original meshes. Never had that happen with HP's custom hair.

EDIT: Hasn't happened with Peggy's or Rose's custom hair either. We know now which tools work, at least I do.

Delphy as a bit of a noob to cc making, I would have to say that is the best idea. Having all different tools we can use makes it easier for the end user to learn them. SimPE was a great tool but it had so much and really, did all people use all things? I doubt it. How it is now and looks to be in the future allows us to choose which tools we want to download. I play with the CTU but I haven't made anything to write home about yet. I have a particular style in mind and haven't got it to work yet, the rest have been binned, lol

Just as an update to what Inge said, after some insights from the TSR folks regarding how the textures are composited together, Tiger modified my 3d viewer code to support a basic clothing skin, texture and stencil. Without TSRs help I'm sure this would have taken longer, so I would like to thank them for the insights and the wiki page detailing this.

Hopefully we'll hear from TSR today about allowing links to MTS from there, since they promised "sometime this week" and it's now Friday evening...

Yay, some steps closer to 3d preview!

As another update re: the linking situation. Thomas, while he was able to join in the discussion about object meshes a couple of days ago and coordinate things there, apparently forgot to mention to us that the coder who was supposed to do work for TSR to add some kind of popup for this disclaimer had gone on holiday on Tuesday.

He is apparently meeting some kind of internal resistance to the agreed upon plans, but is supposedly working to fix it. At this point though, there are no new deadlines and no indication of when this might happen.

While MTS doesn't really need the links, this was supposed to have been done weeks ago, in the spirit of community collaboration and friendliness between sites. I was really hoping that things would be sorted by now, but I guess we shall see what they decide to do and how long it will take - or even if we will be kept informed, as per the previous promises.