Well if I managed to read the mod description properly then it looks like the current way works. XD

Maybe a flow chart would work. Midgethetree essential has one on her Tumblr that probably can't be replicated on MTS, because it has buttons, but it could be written out manually. Hers guides people through setting up a supernatural mod folder.

Not a modder, but I understand how mod conflicts work—to the degree that I understand if multiple mods modify the same game function, it's possible the functionality of one mod may fully or partially override the functionality of the other, potentially causing problems. I don't think there needs to be any sort of in-depth guide or explanation of this; it's a pretty basic concept.

That said, parsing your table is still proving to be a challenge. After a lot of scrutiny and re-reading, I THINK I understand what it's trying to say, but it took a lot of work to get there.

Because, to start, this is what's obvious:

1. Each row represents a different mod. Each mod is also color-coded.
2. Each column represents which game function they modify.
3. If there is an X present in that column for a given row, that mod affects that function. If there is no X in that column, that mod does not affect that function.

Here's where the understanding breaks down:

4. Some mod's rows also have Xs that correspond to OTHER mods, as indicated by their color-coding.

You say "The colored Xs indicate which mods contain changes associated with other mods in those functions." Okay... so if a cell in the table has multiple Xs, the corresponding mods all modify the same function? That's already indicated by the fact that the prior mod has an X in the same column. So that's not why the other Xs are there. What an unconventional way to use a table.

Alright, then let's re-read that explanation and look at the list of mods again. The blue X in brackets next to Name the Father's purple X means... the Triplets and Quads mod has a version that ALSO makes the same changes as Name the Father? Okay, I think I understand now. It's not just that they both affect the overall game function referred to in that column; it's that the OTHER mod incorporates (or has a version that incorporates) the same SPECIFIC function as the mod whose row we are in, if it falls under the game function referred to in that column.

Ergh... okay, so we're mostly getting it. But there's still the matter of mods that share functionality with other mods in some columns but not others, even when the other mod affects the other columns. And, ultimately, after thinking a lot about it... I don't know if it's important or necessary to understand the implications of this. So I don't know if you need to highlight the information in this way.

As others have mentioned, if this is solely for the purpose of helping people understand what order they need their mods to load in if they have more than one of these... why not just state the load order and be done with it? Why make people question their sanity and data comprehension abilities for the sake of decoding a strange table that ultimately doesn't give them much more helpful & actionable information than if you just said something like "These mods affect some of the same functions so you'll want them to load in this order. Also, just so you know, you don't need Mod X if you already have Mod Y as the latter has a version that incorporates all of the changes of the former in addition to its own changes."

Sure, this information can be interesting to know and maybe have value if you want to spend a lot of time thinking about it. But is that necessary for the purposes of people downloading your mod?

I don't see any flowcharts on midge's tumblr. There are some questionnaires regarding fairies and mermaids, but no flowcharts. Can you link to what you're talking about?



I posted this because people often complain about load order requirements and so forth being confusing, ask questions about it even when it's clearly stated in the mod description, get it wrong even when it's clearly stated in the mod description, and generally don't seem to understand why it's necessary or which mods it's necessary for, which probably makes it hard to remember which mods have to load in which order, and don't understand that if two mods have a load order requirement they will show up as "conflicting" in HCDU. This problem is even worse when a mod requires a different mod to work, which is why I just don't make any mods that require Smarter EP Check at all. When your mod has multiple files, people sometimes seem unable to figure out whether they're supposed to install one of the files or all of the files or a subset of the files despite that information being stated clearly in the mod description. If you put in the mod description that your mod is not compatible with some other mod, people will ignore this and try to use them together anyway. So clearly, putting information in the mod description is not an effective way of communicating it to users. I made this chart for myself, when I was making fairy changelings compatible with triplets and quads, and working out what I would have to do to make surrogate hack compatible, and the visualization helped a lot. So I though, it's much faster to see and understand an image than it is to read text. Maybe if the information about mod conflicts was in an image it would actually get through to people? Maybe if people could see exactly which functionality each file contained they would be able to figure out which one to load last and would actually remember this later? But now, when I provide an image, people are like no, this is too confusing, put it in the mod description.

I give up.

There will always be people who don't read the mod description and then whine about things. They wouldn't read a chart either.

The whole point of the chart is that there's very little to read.

That doesn't help if people don't actually understand the chart though! I think my main problem with it is that I was looking at the left column (the list of mod names) and thinking it was the load order, then thinking the Xs were the load order, before realising that (I think) you're just showing which ones conflict, and not demonstrating a load order at all. I think my brain works differently to yours!

I think it would make more sense to me if you just wrote- "this mod conflicts with mod A, B and C for this, and mods X, Y and Z for that, so make sure they load after this mod if you want that feature or before this mod if you want this feature" (fill in detail where I put italics). I think that would be clear to most players, even ESL players.

I understand you are trying to make it easier by using a table, but if the table is going to need a lot of explanation it might put people off from downloading or even trying to understand. For example, some of Simler90s mods- which are wonderful- I avoid downloading just because I can't understand what the mod does at all, because there are 192 revisions to it and no clear explanation of what the finished article does!

Also- and I've noticed this in general with several downloads on this site- if you are referring to other mods, could you please explain who made them? Many people would have no idea what Triplets and Quads is, or who made it. Perhaps put a link- "This mod is now compatible with Twojeff's Triplets and Quads mod which can be downloaded from this archive here." I have no idea what most of those mods you listed are, or who they are by!

I think if I made a text list of every single resource conflict even I would have trouble understanding that, and I made the damn mod. That's why I made the chart in the first place.



Generally when I list conflicts, I assume that if people have those mods installed they already know where they came from and who made them, and if they don't have those mods installed, they don't have to worry about things conflicting with them. What circumstances would this actually be helpful in?

I was thinking of the questionnaire.

It helps if someone thinks the mod looks interesting and wants to look into it further.

It would be helpful for those who might want to complement your mod with others, also for cases where there is more than one mod with the same name or similarly named. If you are going to mention a mod's compatibility with your own, why would you not want people to be certain about which mod you mean? Why would you want someone to glance at your wall of text and table contained wherein and think, 'I have no idea what this person is on about'?

Theoretically, yes, a graphic or chart is faster to parse than full sentences of text. But when you're using an established format like a table in such an unusual and unexpected way, it's more likely to confuse people than anything else. Sure, in retrospect, most of what this chart is trying to convey is obvious and sensible—but that's after over an hour of looking at it and thinking about it. In fact, I continued to think about it the next day and found myself having revelations like "OHHH, obviously that's what that means." So... that was processing in my brain overnight. Not at all faster than just writing it out clearly and concisely.

I also don't think it would help people remember the load order, because they'd still have to memorize what order the mods were listed in this chart. Or... they would just have to keep going back to the post to re-read it, which is functionally the same as having to re-read a plain-text list.

If people still refuse to read or comprehend your clear installation instructions, that's on them. If you feel like people are more confused by your installation instructions than is typical for comparable mods by other people, maybe you have to rethink (or seek feedback on) the way you're writing them.

If the only purpose is to show load order, why not just have a picture of the files where you add a number to the start of their names etc in the order they should be. Do one for each combination of mods you are covering. I don't doubt some people will still not understand, but there's literally no way to make everyone understand without asking questions, that's just how it is.

If you have a specific criticism of the way I've described mods in my mod descriptions, please say what it is. To the best of my knowledge, there are not mods with the same names or similar names as the mods I mention, and they are all pretty well-known mods.

Gummi, the purpose is to show conflicting resources and explain why the load order is the way it is. I can put individual load order requirements on individual mods, but it doesn't show the whole system that consists of all of these mods and seems like a lot of little things for people to memorize as opposed to one big picture.

That was my specific criticism!

You didn't mention any specific mods that you thought weren't well known or which could be mistaken for other mods.

They are only well known if you know them, surely? If people have to do a search to find out what mod you are referring to or who the creator is, then they are much less likely to understand what you are meaning. I know that you don't need to understand all of those mods to use your mod, but people who this chart is aimed at may not know that. If you mention those mods, I think you should make it clear who made them and which specific mod you are talking about. This thread was created by you, because you wanted feedback on the way this mod is presented. My feedback is, to make it user friendly- write out full names of mods with the creator's name and give a link. Be brief, not everyone has the concentration to read a wall of text. Bulletpoints might be helpful. I don't think the visual chart you made is easily understandable by users.

Well, no. Well-known means that a large majority of people know about it. If 95% of the fandom knows about a mod, but I don't know about it, it's still a well-known mod despite the fact that I don't know about it. Similarly, if only 5% of people have heard about it and I happen to be one of them, me knowing about it doesn't make it a well-known mod. In the 95% case, I can put the mod name in my mod description and 95% of readers will immediately know what I'm talking about, and the remaining 5% can ask me if they want to know. 5% of people posting questions in the thread is fine, it's not too much to deal with. On the other hand, if only 5% of people know about that mod and I just use the name for it, 95% of readers will not know about it and may confuse it for some other mod, so more information about it is necessary to avoid being overrun with questions. In my experience, I haven't actually gotten any questions about what the mods are that I've mentioned in my mod descriptions, so I have to assume that either I'm correct and these are well-known mods, or this is just not information that people care about. I didn't really make this thread to ask about how I could better explain to people what Baby Last Name Chooser is because that's not actually a problem I've encountered.

Yes, I could technically explain what every mod mentioned is, and where to get it, and who made it, and details about what it does in order to make people aware of more features they could have in their game, but my purpose in writing mod descriptions is not to provide a literature review. Possibly there is a demand for a literature review on birth mods, but I don't think an individual mod description is the place for that. People have already complained about a "wall of text" earlier in this thread, and many people completely avoid simler90's mods purely because the mod description on most of them has grown out of control and no one wants to actually read it, even setting aside the question of whether or not the mod description is actually clear about what the mod does. If I balloon out the mod description by providing detailed information on every single thing I mention there people will not want to read the mod description, which either means they will not want to use the mod, or more likely means that they will use it incorrectly because they haven't read the mod description. Some of these are complex mods and already require a not insignificant amount of description just to explain what the mod does. I want to keep the mod description as short as possible, and only include information that is actually necessary for using the mod, or for making the decision about whether or not someone wants to use it, as that increases the chances that it actually gets read. Part of the goal here was to introduce an image as a way of reducing the amount of text and making it more likely that the mod description gets read.

All you need to do is put, for example, Two Jeff's Triplets and Quads. Not a wall of text, just a place to go if someone is interested in checking it out.

Yes, what @Charity said. I didn't mention that you actually had to describe the mods, just link to them and use the creator's name when you mention them (such as 'my (kestrellyn's) surrogate hack'). Otherwise, why mention the mods at all? Just keep the bits where you mention ' this might conflict with other mods that change BHAVs 0x101F and 0x023 in group 0x7F1D0F49 etc.,' and leave it at that.
For example, this mod by Whoward:
https://www.picknmixmods.com/Sims2/...ugJarFixes.html

Also, this mod by Nopke:
https://modthesims.info/d/675542/lt...ubject-fix.html
Nopke mentions the conflicting mods with an embedded link, and also the creator name. Then gives a table of the overridden resources. This, I think, is really easy to understand, and clear to even me.



If you just made it clear what you were referring to, everyone would understand it. If a new member doesn't know what you are referring to in the first line of your download post, why would they bother reading on?

The point of mentioning the mods is to say what the conflicts are. People who don't know what the mods modify usually have no way to know if a mod modifies certain resources. If you don't know what mod I'm referring to, you certainly don't have it in your game, so you can just ignore that part. For the most part, people do seem to do that.

I understand, but I don't think most people care about the why. They just want to know what to do, so they can back to their game and enjoy playing. That's been my experience at least Perhaps you have people asking why, and if that is the case then I see why you'd be trying to add that information. But it feels like it's just going to add more text that people don't understand that makes them zone out and get confused